Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 22, 2017, 06:11:17 am

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: 45 Cowboy Special: Starline made it legit? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: 45 Cowboy Special: Starline made it legit?  (Read 3319 times)
Johnny_Cyclone
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13



« on: August 23, 2017, 10:51:49 pm »


I'm am utterly Gobsmacked at seeing this.

Looks like Starline made it legit at a fair price point. When did this happen?
___________________

Cowboy Special (Large Pistol primer)
Cowboy 45 Special, 45 SPL, C45S
0.892 - 0.896 O.A.L.
The Cowboy .45 Special is a case that is optimized for use with light loads in .45 Colt caliber revolvers for Cowboy Action Shooting. Light loads with excessive airspace are a recipe for case splits and erratic function. By using the Cowboy .45 Special case, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, the problem no longer exists. While many claim that .45 Auto load data can be used in this caliber, it is important to realize the limitations of the firearm it is chambered in and only use loads that fall within the pressure range of that firearm. Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die, or .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die.

Box Size:
 250 ($67.00)
 500 ($119.00)
 1000 ($217.00)

Status: Available Now
ORDER

It's hidden under "WHAT'S NEW"
https://www.starlinebrass.com/whats-new/new-products.cfm

Logged
Jake C
Department of the Atlantic, GAF # 834
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 476


« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 08:46:00 am »

Neat! Looks like a good way to dip one's toe into .45 Cowboy Special. Might need to order some and play with that particular round a bit.
Logged

Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800
Bunk Stagnerg
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 518


« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 09:15:50 am »

That CAS case with 1.3 c/c FFFg powder and a 200 grain bullet, I believe, pretty much  duplicates the ballistics of the original 44 Henry load.
Correct me if i am wrong.
Bunk
Logged
The Pathfinder
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 408


« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 12:34:23 pm »

I wonder if these would work for a light load in an uncut Webley? Any ideas? Huh 455 being so easy to find and all.
Logged
Noz
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1551



« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 02:29:08 pm »

Do not use 45 ACP dies to load the C45S.  The 45 ACP is a tapered case and the blow back is horrible.

Yea, Yeah there is a reason I know this.
Logged

Noz
Ruger Old Armys avec poudre noire
Bunk Stagnerg
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 518


« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 03:58:31 pm »

I use a .45 Colt sizing die. an .45 ACP expanding and seating along with a .45 Auto Rim taper crimping die. I make a pretty heavy crimp but the bullet can't "turtle" in the rifle because it is full of real Gun Powder. An accurate hard hitting round that wil make a "klink" on the 100 yard Cody/Dixon target.
Bunk
Logged
Jack Straw
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


SASS #1562


« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 05:41:53 pm »

Starline is just a great company, that's all there is to it. Grin Grin

Although I love the idea of .45 Cowboy I've gone  back to full power loads in my .45 Colt and .45 Schofield.   After years of lighter bullets I've come to miss the feel of 230 or 250 grainers.  I want the experience of the real deal.

I wonder if .45 Cowboy RNFP loads will function in a '73 or '66?  If they do it just might allow 10 rounds in a 16" trapper configuration.  Schofield cases have always worked nicely in my toggle rifles so maybe the Cowboy round will too and would not stress a stock extractor like the somewhat wider Schofield rim.
Logged
Abilene
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2296



WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2017, 05:51:37 pm »

...I wonder if .45 Cowboy RNFP loads will function in a '73 or '66?  If they do it just might allow 10 rounds in a 16" trapper configuration.  Schofield cases have always worked nicely in my toggle rifles so maybe the Cowboy round will too and would not stress a stock extractor like the somewhat wider Schofield rim.

No, they will not feed unless you use the custom carrier from the Smith Shop (which would also prevent you from using standard .45 Colt without changing back to the stock carrier). 

My 16" Trapper '73 from Cimarron holds ten 250gr 45 Colt rounds.  But difficult to load into the tube.  After a couple thousand of those through the carbine, I finally switched to Schofield rounds, which are easier to load.  The Schofield with a 180gr bullet is too short to feed, but with a 200 or 250gr (I use 250gr, which is also my Wild Bunch round) bullet feeds fine in the '73.

Logged

Johnny_Cyclone
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13



« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 08:22:17 pm »

I reload 45 Cowboy Special (45CS) using the LEE .455 Webley Mark II three die set P/N-90764 and a .45 colt shellplate/shellholder.

The sizing die is labeled .45 Colt. The other two dies in the set have Webley markings.

I did add a .45 LEE Factory Crimp Die (FCD)  P/N-90865 in the mix as a 4th station crimp only die. I set the Webley seat/crimp die to seat only.
Makes for a sweet 4 die setup. I like seating and crimping separate. You can do three dies but I like 4... it's a round number.. lol.

So it looks like:

Die 1 - .45 Colt sizer / decapper die (part of the Webley three die set)
Die 2 - .455 Webley Powder thru expander die (part of the Webley three die set)
Die 3 - .455 Webley seat /crimp die (set to seat only, part of the Webley three die set)
Die 4 - Optional -.45 Colt/Webley/Casull FCD (with the carbide ring removed, for crimp only. It's just how I am. I like bullets with big hips Smiley

Die 4 notes: You could also do die 4 and leave the ring in, or contact LEE and order another Webley seat/crimp die and use it to crimp only. You could grab an old 45 colt seat/crimp die, toss the seat stem, then shorten (cut/grind/machine) the die body so the crimp portion of the die can contact the neck on the shorter 45CS brass... or say the heck with it, ditch the separate seatin' an' crimpin' idea and rock it old school and just use die 3 to seat AND crimp. That method has worked for decades.. lol. Your choice. I'm no judge.

.45 Colt shellplate/shellholder

Shouldn't be too cost prohibitive to grab a 3 die set.
Example:
https://www.titanreloading.com/455-webley-markii-3-die-set-carbide

If going for that 4th die then:
https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-precision-reloading-equipment/lee-pistol-reloading-dies/lee-pistol-factory-crimp-dies/45-colt455-web454-casull-carbide-crimp-die-

If that didn't make sense let me know and I'll try to correct my verbage here or explain it better in another post?

Anyway it's pretty much how I run it on my Dillon with a Pro Auto Disk. (is that blasphemy? Red and Blue working together for the greater good.. lol) Now that Brass is available and I can go back to loading it in volume I may reinstall the Dillon hopper.

I hope this helps someone.
Good luck.

Case dimensions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

I almost forgot, ya might notice that in my reloading setup the dies that would affect case dimensions are .45 colt dies. The Webley'ist portion of the setup is adjusted to only to expand, fill, and seat. So outer 45CS case diameter remains as Colt from neck to base as the colt dies allow.






Logged
Baltimore Ed
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 495



« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 08:48:29 pm »

I wonder if these would work for a light load in an uncut Webley? Any ideas? Huh 455 being so easy to find and all.
The rim on the Webley is very, very thin, probably half as thick as a .45 LC which I assume is the same as a Special rim. You would have to thin the rim of the special case or rebate the cylinder of your original uncut cylinder. Not a good idea as uncut martial revolvers bring a premium nowdays. A rebated cylinder will allow about half of the LC case rim to go into the cylinder. I have all 3 versions, original, rebated and shaved (for auto rim or moon clips) in my collection of Webleys, Colts and Smiths. The rebated revolvers are the nicest conversions as they at least still look correct. And you can still shoot the webley brass as it's rim is bigger and it will seat on the uncut part of the cylinder.  Always remember though that you've got to load .454/.455 bullets to get any accuracy in a .455.
Logged

"Give'em hell, Pike"
Johnny_Cyclone
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13



« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2017, 03:40:34 pm »

For those in need of quick data:

Original Data sheets from back in the day:

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy45specialLoadData.pdf


Cowboy .45 Special (CB45S), now marketed by Starline as .45 Cowboy Special (45CS)? since cowboy is one word? or would it be (45CBS)?.
Well, whatever I'm giddy..  Grin
Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4260


« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2017, 07:38:19 pm »


The Cowboy 45 Special has "ALWAYS" been legit.  Adirondack Jack made it legit originally.  The only real problem has been the folks who paid for exclusive rights to the cartridge weren't real good at maintaining availability after AJ sold the business.

Having it available directly from Starline is Uber way KOOL.  Reasonably priced too.  Really nifty cartridge.
 
Logged
Major 2
"Still running against the wind"
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10295


Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2017, 02:01:14 am »

The underlying thing is, Starline see's enough future in CAS to tool up....

That is a good thing  Smiley
Logged
Bunk Stagnerg
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 518


« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2017, 06:29:45 am »

.45 CAS brass loaded with 1.3 c/c FFFg and a 200 grain BL bullet runs through my 1860 Henry (Happy Trails lifter) slick as can be.
Accurate and hard hitting. I would love to get a crack and one of the feral hogs that roam back inmy back pasture the Darby Rough.
A loading very similiar to mine, the .44 Henry rim fire, worked very well then and should work well now.
Hold center
Bunk
Logged
The Pathfinder
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 408


« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 09:41:54 am »

Thanks, guys for the replies about the Webley. Already got 3, a Mk IV and a Mk VI untouched, and a shaved Mk V. Ordered the brass the other day, so we'll have to see how it turns out.
Logged
treebeard
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 284



« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2017, 10:58:09 am »

Anyone know if 45 Cowboy Special can be used in a Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy?
Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4260


« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2017, 11:26:03 am »

HEY Treebeard   Cheesy

Yep.  I keno the answer to that one   Roll Eyes    NO.  Not in a stock rifle.  However, you can contact Widdomaker Hill whom hangs out on the SASS wire.  He can do a rather nifty modification to the Marlin that will cause it to feed 45 Colt and C45S interchangeably.  Run em a fast as you can run the lever (faster actually).

ADDITIONALY:  For a little more information ..... I load on a Dillon 650.  Been running Cowboy 45 Special thru it since before there were Cowboy Special (need separate thread).  For the Dillonestas ... I run the OEM Dillon Resize die.  The OEM Dillon Expander Powder drop die.  The OEM Dillon 45 ACP seater die with the plug reversed.  And finish up with a Redding Profile Crimp die.  I consider a good tight Roll Crimp essential.  I shoot Cowboy 45 Special cases in 4 different Henry Rifles of 4 different barrel lengths, an 1866 Trapper (16 inch barrel) and an 1873 Trapper (rifle) w/16 inch barrel.  Tube magazines really prefer a Roll Crimp.

Of course I also shoot the C45S cartridge in my conversion pistols when I find need of a Suppository Shooter (bad weather) or I'm too lazy to load Cap Guns an a given day (yes ... it happens) and still want to shoot my Snubbies.  Have Suppository Cylinders - Will Travel.

It has not mattered what I have shot C45S thru, Accuracy has been outstanding for CAS.  The true Beez Kneez for a revolver though, is a SA fitted with a 45 ACP Cylinder.  Digests C45S cases like PoP Corn!!  Try um, yule like um!!  (C45S cases).
Logged
Bunk Stagnerg
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 518


« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2017, 03:04:33 pm »

I have been in love with them since I got my first 100 from AJ himself. for revolvers 1.3c/c FFg and a 175 grain BL bullet makes smoke and klank every time (if you point the barrel thing correctly). Depending on the weather and posse sizcap guns or suppository guns rifle and revolver get fed the .45 CAS and i am glad Starline is cranking them out.
hold center
Bunk
Logged
Bibbyman
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 278


« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2017, 09:02:16 am »

Anyone know if 45 Cowboy Special can be used in a Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy?

Yes, BUT..  It requires that the carrier be modified.

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Widdermajic_Marlin.htm

https://youtu.be/gI3OSo4nugo
Logged
Baltimore Ed
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 495



« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2017, 09:44:24 am »

Don't see the draw to swap easy to load plentiful LC brass for pricy hard to get spcl brass. The only edge that I can see is if you like really short carbines, this may be the only way you can squeeze 10 rds into the magazine. If you're trying to load gamer loads why mess with a .45. I don't know offhand what the oal difference is between Schofield brass and spcl but it can't be that much. Curious.
Logged

"Give'em hell, Pike"
Johnny_Cyclone
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13



« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2017, 03:50:02 pm »

45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 ACP, and 45 Auto Rim.

original pic by Driftwood Johnson


Wiley Clapp - American Rifleman - December 18, 2013
Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4260


« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2017, 03:58:28 pm »

B Ed,

Because.  There are a lot of folks out there who have 45s.  They wan t them to be more comfortable to shoot.  They aren't necessarily "GAMERS" and they aren't necessarily chasing "Gamer Loads."  

For a less "intense" experience, something easier on the wrist, the 45 Colt is a very inefficient cartridge.  Getting a good burn at reduced load levels can be difficult at best.  The 45 CS allows a lighter load in a more efficient configuration.  Instead of messing with tons of "fillers" a smaller case just makes more sense.

Now that Starline is selling it direct, it's not "Pricy" nor "hard to get" special brass.  Buy it like any other brass.  There is a marked difference in length between 45 Schofield and 45 Spl.  Just go to your supply of brass and set a 45 ACP next to a Schofield.  The difference will become painfully obvious.  Nanny Nanny Poo Poo!! Roll Eyes
Logged
Johnny_Cyclone
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13



« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2017, 04:07:28 pm »

Does anyone have a pic of a .44 Henry cartridge next to a .45 Cowboy Special for comparison sake?
Curious minds and all that ya know..
Logged
Baltimore Ed
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 495



« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2017, 04:14:17 pm »

C,
Thank you very much for the enlightenment. Sometimes I speak before I measure. Nanny nanny poo pooo?Huh?? Well, I never heard such!!!
B.Ed
Logged

"Give'em hell, Pike"
Dick Dastardly
Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4460



WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2017, 08:14:15 pm »

I ordered 1000 pieces.  Maybe I should have ordered more.

DD-MDA
Logged

Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: 45 Cowboy Special: Starline made it legit? « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.069 seconds with 22 queries.