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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  STORM (Moderators: RRio, Major 2)  |  Topic: Richards Type II conversion 44 Special 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Richards Type II conversion 44 Special  (Read 2028 times)
Pappy Hayes
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« on: August 14, 2017, 08:46:12 pm »


For the Richard's to  handle the 44 Special, is the frame and cylinder larger then the 44 Colt/Russian One? Has anyone had any issues with the 44 Special like I have heard with the 45 Colt? I have a pair of 44 Colt with 8 inch barrels, I want to get one with 51/2 inch barrel. I was  originally thinking of going with one in 38 Special because it is more available. Give me you opinions please.
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Abilene
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2017, 09:13:26 pm »

The cylinders are the same for the .44's.  The .44's and even the .45's have not been having problems with the Type II.  Keep in mind that the .38 version has a different frame and cylinder (not rebated).  In fact, the gun in .38 is the same as a '61 except for the Army grip.  I bought one and put a Navy grip on it to make a '61 conversion:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,58772.0.html
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 10:07:58 pm »

The only place I have heard of Cimarron "45 Conversions" having problems is a couple this forum.  Even then, it is nothing specific, just "I have heard they are having problems!"  I shot some of the first that came in in the 90s, and I have been writing for the Chronicle since 1996, I have NEVER heard of any problems with the 45 conversions...  I think Abilene would know if they were having problems.  

If anything, I suspect someone threw a double charge of Unique, then blamed the gun. and it has taken on a life of its own, like all the other fake cr@p on the internet....

Firearms forums are full of "I knew a guy..." or "I knew a guy, who knew a guy..."
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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Abilene
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 10:40:48 pm »

A ways back there were a few that were a bit too thin at the bottom of the barrel where it is cut out for the cylinder "bushing" and cracking there  ( a few overdone "cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees" jobs were part of that as well).  And once they cut the bolt notches in some .45S&W a little too deep and some of those got "spit out"  These problems really haven't been around for a long time. 
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Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 10:47:20 pm »

Tuolumne,

When I bought my Type II 44's at Texas Jacks last week, we discussed the question about the 45 Colt chambering in the conversions, as he had two of each caliber in stock.  The gun department manager there did tell me he had seen three of the 45 Colt conversions (he didn't specifically say Type II's, so I guess could have been RM's) sent back to Cimarron with blown cylinders that the owners said had occurred when shooting Black Hills cowboy ammo.

That was one reason I stuck with the 44 Special/Colt/Russian chambering, since it would have about 0.012"+ thicker chamber walls, and carried a significantly smaller powder charge.

I know this is 3rd hand, so take it for what it's worth................
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Pappy Hayes
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 07:32:56 am »

So can the cylinder be loaded with six 44 Special cartridges? I thought the Specual  brass had larger rims. Again I would like some pares opinions about staying with the 44 or go with the 38. Since the :8!cylinder is not rebated material fur go that way and change the gro to navy because I have wanted a 61 conversion. Just don't knownifnibwantbto have to buy a different cartridge. If it willloadbsic 44 Special and it is more available the the Colt and Russian I think I would stay with the 44. Just want others opinions
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Jake C
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2017, 07:45:06 am »

So can the cylinder be loaded with six 44 Special cartridges? I thought the Specual  brass had larger rims. Again I would like some pares opinions about staying with the 44 or go with the 38. Since the :8!cylinder is not rebated material fur go that way and change the gro to navy because I have wanted a 61 conversion. Just don't knownifnibwantbto have to buy a different cartridge. If it willloadbsic 44 Special and it is more available the the Colt and Russian I think I would stay with the 44. Just want others opinions

i have a Cimarron Richards Type II Conversion that says it is chambered for .44 Colt, but will chamber and fire .44 Special no problem. I tend to fire .44 Colt BP rounds out of it, but the .44 Special rounds don't give me any troubles. I think you'll enjoy either option because they're both great cartridges and the Richards Type II repros are great guns, in my opinion. If you've already got everything for a .44 then I say go for the .44; however, it's your money and if you want a .38 then get that. Get whatever will make you happy. I'm sure you'll enjoy your gun new gun either way.
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Abilene
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2017, 07:56:19 am »

Pappy, it was only the old ASM conversions that would chamber the .44 Colt only, not the Special or Russian (the Special, Russian, and 45 Colt rim are all the same size).  In all six holes, that is.

Blackpowder Burn, that is interesting news about Blackhills ammo blowing some 45 cylinders.  I have not heard of that.  Now, Texas Jacks does probably sell more of those guns than almost anyone except maybe Buffalo Arms.  Was the gun manager there named Dean?  Or a different weekend guy?  I'll have to talk to Dean next time I see him.
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Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 08:22:46 am »

Abilene - Yes, it was Dean.  Just didn't want to get into names on the forum.  However.............

Pappy Hayes - Yes, the gun is marked as chambered for the 44 Special.  I have to date fired 44 Colt and 44 Russian ammo through it with no issues.  The 44 Russian and the 44 Special have the same rim diameter, which I measured to make sure.  So it will easily handle any of the 3 cartridges.
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 09:10:06 am »

I stand corrected
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 09:38:24 am »

Have had and shot a Uberti Richards II chambered in 44 Spec since 2008 shooting both 44 Colt (FF blk) and 44 Spec (S. Less) with no cylinder rim problems loading 5 or 6 rounds. Use Starline brass 90% of the time, although I shoot mostly the 44 Colts using blk anymore. Have had a Uberti OpenTop since 2007 in 44 Spec with no problems either. As Abilene posted most of the problems associated with the older Uberti's were with the 45 Colt and the thinned out bottom of the barrel with cracking. A lot of talk about those in the back pages of STORM. From what I've read here and other places, that was even prior to my purchasing any of the open top style framed Colt's. Uberti did enlarge the cylinders and frame dimension's some from what I've read here by other's to accommodate the 44 family of rims. That is to the ire of some as it isn't 'original', no problem with me-the slightly increased size isn't enough in my book to warrant any loss of sleep over the issue. It's nice to be able to have the repro's to shoot. Original's are to pricey to buy and to delicate and valuable to shoot. I'd rather cast the Mav Dutchman's and reload the 44 Colt's (and Specials at times) with all the components that are available than mess around with heeled bullets and such. JMO! I do also have a Richard/Mason conversion in 38 Spec that I just got a little over a year ago. Shoot blk with Snakebite cast bullets. Have it in Army size grips as the OT and Richards, like the feel better, good shooter too, but the 44's are my favorite. Like my 44 cap and ball revolvers better to than my 36's. Grin
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 12:05:01 pm »

Have had and shot a Uberti Richards II chambered in 44 Spec since 2008 shooting both 44 Colt (FF blk) and 44 Spec (S. Less) with no cylinder rim problems loading 5 or 6 rounds. Use Starline brass 90% of the time, although I shoot mostly the 44 Colts using blk anymore. Have had a Uberti OpenTop since 2007 in 44 Spec with no problems either. As Abilene posted most of the problems associated with the older Uberti's were with the 45 Colt and the thinned out bottom of the barrel with cracking. A lot of talk about those in the back pages of STORM. From what I've read here and other places, that was even prior to my purchasing any of the open top style framed Colt's. Uberti did enlarge the cylinders and frame dimension's some from what I've read here by other's to accommodate the 44 family of rims. That is to the ire of some as it isn't 'original', no problem with me-the slightly increased size isn't enough in my book to warrant any loss of sleep over the issue. It's nice to be able to have the repro's to shoot. Original's are to pricey to buy and to delicate and valuable to shoot. I'd rather cast the Mav Dutchman's and reload the 44 Colt's (and Specials at times) with all the components that are available than mess around with heeled bullets and such. JMO! I do also have a Richard/Mason conversion in 38 Spec that I just got a little over a year ago. Shoot blk with Snakebite cast bullets. Have it in Army size grips as the OT and Richards, like the feel better, good shooter too, but the 44's are my favorite. Like my 44 cap and ball revolvers better to than my 36's. Grin

what he say's is Ditto here

My Type I in 44 Colt has been my main match since 2010 .... 0 issues

Similar experience with my OT.... purchased in 2013,  it has however,  not seen the same # of Rounds all these years  as the Type II
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 02:07:25 pm »

My Turn!!

From a strictly professional standpoint (Retired Gunplumber), There is currently no "Known" ongoing problem with The 45 Richards II or any of the other Uberti built "Open Top" design guns.  They do just fine.  ALL Uberti Open Type guns suffer the same poor to nonexistent Barrel to Arbor fit problem.  I consistently jump up on my Soap Box and tell folks to insure the barrel fits properly to the Arbor (easy to remove/replace) and VERIFY the Barrel to Arbor fit.  Then BEFORE the gun goes into service, or BEFORE anything else is done to it, CORRECT the Barrel to Arbor fit.

Abilene nicely covered to few past little problems.  Those problem were unique and not ongoing.  I would have no hesitation what-so-ever with a Richards Type II or any other Uberti Open Top type gun in 44 Special.  Just remember, emulating Elmer Keith would not be Harmonious.

Now for the personal opinion part.  I don't agree with Uberti chambering the Open Top guns in .45.  In my personal Opine, I feel the chamber walls are too thin.  The guns are proofed for SAAMI 45 ammunition.  The should digest SAAMI and Cowboy level ammunition with no problems.  I only make my concern for the IDIOTS out there who will reload beyond SAAMI pressure levels.  I would bet money, the blown cylinders cited were the result of STUPIDITY, not factory produced ammunition.

I personally own a pair of the first Open Tops sold.  They were the guns sent to all the gun scribes to test.  They were chambered in 45 Schofield.  I've shot about a Bazzilion rounds thru them.  45 Schofield, 45 Squirt and C45S.  These guns probably have 20,000 rounds thru em.  ZERO problems.  ALL reduced cowboy level ammunition.  Common sense applies.

I also have Open Top 44 Colt cylinders and Barrels as well as having own'd a pair of type IIs in 44 Colt.  ZERO problems.  No hesitation recommending em to anyone.

MY CAVEAT:  With any of the Open Top type guns from Uberti.  BEFORE you do anything else .. verify and CORRECT the barrel to Arbor fit.

Coffinmaker
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Coal Creek Griff
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 02:36:16 pm »

ALL Uberti Open Type guns suffer the same poor to nonexistent Barrel to Arbor fit problem.  I consistently jump up on my Soap Box and tell folks to insure the barrel fits properly to the Arbor (easy to remove/replace) and VERIFY the Barrel to Arbor fit.  Then BEFORE the gun goes into service, or BEFORE anything else is done to it, CORRECT the Barrel to Arbor fit...

...MY CAVEAT:  With any of the Open Top type guns from Uberti.  BEFORE you do anything else .. verify and CORRECT the barrel to Arbor fit.

Coffinmaker:  Any thoughts on the barrel to arbor fit?  I seem to remember you mentioning that somewhere.  Wink  Grin

I WAS going to say that it isn't important just to fire things up, but two things prevented me: 1. I might be taken seriously and I DO believe it to be important and 2. Coffinmaker might come after me with his properly fitted pistols.

CC Griff
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Pappy Hayes
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2017, 06:10:21 pm »

Any pictures I see of the type II in 38 it shows it with rebates cylinder.
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2017, 09:59:41 pm »

Pappy: Your comment on pictures of Richards II models in 38 caliber showing a rebated cylinder and frame has come up before and questioned. If I recall maybe it was Abilene who splained' it that Uberti use's a 61' Navy frame and cylinder for the Richards II in the 38 caliber models, hence no stepped frame or rebated cylinder. My 38 Spec Richards/Mason conversion is this way. Maybe someone will chime in to confirm this or set the record straight. If I recall there was something said about the fact that Cimmaron and Taylors who are the main distributors of the Uberti conversions have their pictures wrong on their websites and catalogs and for space saving purposes don't show the exact picture of every model. I could be as wet as swamp duck, but it went something like that. My 38 RM is a Taylor import and they show the 38 caliber RM with stepped frame and rebated cylinder when it isn't. Good and fun shooter anyway.
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2017, 10:10:41 pm »

Pretty much what Crow Choker said.  The pics in the ads are the .44/.45 models.  If you look at mine you can see: no rebated cylinder.
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Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2017, 10:25:15 pm »

Yep, what Crow Choker and Abilene said.  Dean and I discussed buying the Type II's in 44 Special or 38 Special.  He told me the 38's did not have the rebated cylinder, although I didn't go so far as to have him dig them out from in back to look at.  I just prefer the larger bores.
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 07:04:00 am »

For anyone interested in a prior discussion on the 'non-rebated' 38 Spec conversion, the one I was thinking of is on page 2 of STORM, currently seven threads down from the top authored by Abilene, titled "My Cimarron 1861 Conversion". Good read.
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Pappy Hayes
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 11:51:06 am »

Abilene do you have pictures somewhere here on the forum? Never mind I found the pictures. Nice looking gun. I had my mind made up to stay with the 44 but seeing your gun has me confused which way to go. I guess maybe the determining factor would be I would not know when I would get the navy grip. I don't even know where you get such a thing
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Jake C
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2017, 12:52:13 pm »

Abilene do you have pictures somewhere here on the forum? Never mind I found the pictures. Nice looking gun. I had my mind made up to stay with the 44 but seeing your gun has me confused which way to go. I guess maybe the determining factor would be I would not know when I would get the navy grip. I don't even know where you get such a thing

VTI gun parts is a good option for grips and grip frames. You might also be able to find those same parts on Ebay or something.
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2017, 07:29:47 pm »

Here is one of a pair of Type I's I am working on.  I like Type I's because of the conversion ring mounted rear sight and floating firing pin


* DSC_0034.jpg (174.24 KB, 1280x853 - viewed 70 times.)

* DSC_0035.jpg (246.41 KB, 853x1280 - viewed 52 times.)
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2017, 10:46:36 am »

Pettifogger,
Nice Project.  The ASMs were/are really neat guns.  Most accurate .38s I've ever owned.

Whatcher gonna do about the final finish??  Nickel ... Hard Chrome ... CCH/Blue ... Blue/Blue?? 

Week and simple minds are curious(er).
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2017, 05:44:29 pm »

It's nickeled.  Unless the finish is damaged while I am working on it, I will leave it with the nickel finish.  These guns were messed up by the previous owner.  The first thing I did when I got them was run a range rod down the barrel to make sure the chambers lined up with the bore.  Many of these had the cylinder notches cut in the wrong place so when fired they shaved lead something terrible.  If they had been bad they were going to make a nice pair of lamps.  The cylinder chambers lined up OK so I am rebuilding them.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2017, 07:01:44 pm »

Pettifogger,

Way cool.  At one time I had a real thing for the ASM Type 1s.  Actually still do, just don't mess with them anymore.  At one time had 11 of them, to get enough parts to keep 5 running.  Finally just sold em all on.

I think being built on a quasi 1861 frame/cylinder/barrel made them the best looking conversions on the PLANET!!
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  STORM (Moderators: RRio, Major 2)  |  Topic: Richards Type II conversion 44 Special « previous next »
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