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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  STORM (Moderators: RRio, Major 2)  |  Topic: Opinions on Next Purchase 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Opinions on Next Purchase  (Read 2526 times)
Blackpowder Burn
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Smoke & Lightning


« on: August 07, 2017, 06:13:59 pm »


I've wanted a pair of Open Tops or RM's for years, and have decided I can probably find room in the safe for them with some judicious reshuffling.  My quandary is this.....

I visited Texas Jack's today (Cimarrons Outlet Store) and they have in stock a pair of 1860 Type 1 Richards conversions in 44 Special/Colt/Russian as well as a pair of 1851 RM conversions in 38 Special/Colt - both with the 8" barrel.  Now, I am somewhat of a purist, wanting to shoot the proper period correct cartridge with BP in the guns I purchase.  These would fit the bill, since I could shoot 44 Colt in the Type 1 and 38 Long Colt in the 1851 RM.

So far, so good.  Now I just can't make up my mind which pair to buy.  I'm no longer into maximum BP loads into large bore guns, just wanting to enjoy making enough smoke and noise to irritate my posse members.  Heck, my 32-20 loads are more potent than the mouse phart loads used by most shooters!  Grin

So, from that perspective, the 1851 RM conversion with 38 Long Colt ammo would more than fill the bill.  And I have everything needed to load that cartridge except a bullet mold and sizing die.

I love the 1860 Type 1, and have everything I need to load it except some brass.  I could even shoot 44 Russian ammo if I really wanted to load it down (might need some different dies for it).

If I had unlimited funds, I'd buy both pairs, but I have to choose just one for now.  So.......I'd like to hear y'all's opinions on how I should spend my money. Shocked
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Abilene
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 06:35:16 pm »

Several times you mentioned '1860 Type 1' but I'm guessing you meant Type II, since that is what they sell.  And one small correction, the '51 is 7 1/2", not 8".

I think you already know what you want, so I guess you just want some encouragement?  Since I have two pair of '51 R-M's, 5 1/2" and 7 1/2" (with one of the 7 1/2" now sporting a 4 3/4" barrel to shoot with my new "61" made from a Type II .38), I obviously like them and will certainly suggest them!  I do shoot .38 Spcl in mine, but with the differences in cases and powder from back then to now I imagine my .38 Spcl BP loads are similar to original .38LC power-wise.  

Obvious other difference between the two choices is Army vs. Navy grips.  My smaller hands like the Navy better.  But that Type II sure is a dang nice looking gun, too.  Smiley
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Blackpowder Burn
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Smoke & Lightning


« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 06:55:08 pm »

Abilene,

The 1860's were actually Type 1's with the earlier ejector assemblies.  They had a pair of Type II's in 45 Colt.

I am truly torn betweeen the two guns and change my "decision" about every 30 minutes.

I'll be passing back through there on Thursday and will have to make a final decision by then.
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 07:39:40 pm »

I vote Richards in .44 Colt....
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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Smoke & Lightning


« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 08:03:07 pm »

Abilene,

I owe you an apology.  I went back to the Cimarron website and what I thought the gun department manager told me was a Richards Type I is, indeed, a Richards Transition, Type II conversion.  That'll teach me to not check my facts better, and I'm certainly no expert on the Colt conversion models.  I just think they're really interesting.

Tuolumne,

I think I'm leaning more toward the 44 Colt as I think about it longer.  I still have this innate love of larger bore sizes, and the 44 Russian would give me the ability to load it down close to the level of the 38 Long Colt if I decide I want to. I also like the 1860 grip frame, and since I already shoot 1860 Army front stuffers, they'd keep the same feel.
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 08:48:16 pm »

Yeah, if you find a Type 1 it will be an older Armi-San-Marcos gun.  The ASM Type 1 and Uberti Type II have the same barrel appearance, but the Type 1 has the frame mounted firing pin and rear sight on the hammer.  Also, the ASM's did not have a rebated cylinder. 
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Good Troy
NCOWS
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 09:09:45 pm »

Buy both.  If you don't like one, I'll take it off your hands.  After all, what are friends for anyways??
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Good Troy
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Smoke & Lightning


« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 09:53:49 pm »

Troy,

How about this - I buy one pair, and you buy the other.  Then we can swap back and forth!  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 10:03:05 pm »

Troy,

How about this - I buy one pair, and you buy the other.  Then we can swap back and forth!  Grin

Now that is an idea with merit!  I mean, how many sets of guns can you shoot in one match, anyway?  (Well, okay, I did shoot six pairs of pistols in a match once, but I dang sure wasn't shooting BP   Cheesy ).
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Good Troy
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 11:00:58 pm »

Troy,

How about this - I buy one pair, and you buy the other.  Then we can swap back and forth!  Grin

Okay...which set will you buy?
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Good Troy
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Abilene
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 11:05:58 pm »

The smart guy buys the navies.  Pricewise, '51's cost least (brass gripframe), '60 R-M's cost more (steel gripframe), Type II's cost most (add ejector fabrication).  Just sayin'.  Smiley
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 11:16:04 pm »

Richards Type II Transitionals!  How can you not love the lines with the 1860 barrel assembly....Oooooooh  Grin  I got mine in .45 Schofield for two reasons:  One i did not want to start loading a second pistol caliber for main match.  My 4.75" barreled 1872 Open Top and my 1875 Schofield are both in .45.  

I can make a better case for the .45 Schofield loading, so secondly, the .44 Colt was a 210 grain heeled bullet of .452" to .454" diameter, like my 200-205 grain .452 Schofield rounds, though the case was smaller diameter than the Schofield. I will be shooting the same 200 grain-ish, ,452" bullet that the originals did.  The original .44 Colt case and .45 Schofield cases are the same length.  Now if I could find some round nose 230s for my Schofield load.


* Richards-2 copy.jpg (294.67 KB, 1200x624 - viewed 39 times.)

* Richards-1 copy.jpg (288.95 KB, 1250x582 - viewed 37 times.)
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 11:47:51 pm »

Well Sir , just speaking from a personal experience , and point of view ....

My main match has been, a 44 Colt Type II  but I also have a 38 51 Navy R&M

One thing about NCOWS ( my chosen discipline ) is the 2 gun,  one pistol & one rifle classifications  Smiley  Working Cowboy & Originals ,



 



 


* My Type 2 conv...Resized.JPG (119.64 KB, 540x334 - viewed 39 times.)

* My 38 R&M.png (104.73 KB, 640x266 - viewed 41 times.)
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 11:58:16 pm »

First picture: Original .44 Colt next to vintage .45 Colt

Second: .44 Colt next to my .45 Schofield load


* DSC_0071 copy.JPG (243.79 KB, 794x778 - viewed 30 times.)

* 44 c and Schofield.jpeg (255.44 KB, 948x980 - viewed 28 times.)
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 07:18:04 am »

You guys aren't making this any easier - not that I really expected that!

I asked about the 45 Schofield, and was told that Cimarron had dropped that and just used the 45 Colt clambering.  Not that I can't shoot the Schofield in that, of course.

I already cast proper 44 and 45 caliber bullets, so either the 44 Colt or 45 Colt/Schofield is no problem - just need some brass.  The one thing I don't like about the Navy is that big brass cone of a front sight.  But those are less expensive, as Abilene says.  That being said, it amounts to about $70 out of $1100, so doesn't matter that much in the Grand Scheme of Things.

Of course, I could buy one of each.  Then I take 3 calibers to the loading bench. 38 Long Colt, 44 Colt and 44-40 (for my HRA Henry). 

I have considered one other side project if I buy the 44's - buying extra 38 caliber cylinders and having them rechambered to 44-40 so I could also have that caliber option.  That is a rather intriguing thought............
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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 08:06:00 am »

You guys aren't making this any easier - not that I really expected that!



Of course, I could buy one of each.  . 



Kinda where I was going  Wink
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Good Troy
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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 08:14:01 am »

Here's a plan... Buy the 1860's in 44 Colt.  Get a chamber insert for the Henry.  Modify the carrier on the Henry.  Shoot them all in 44 Colt or 44 Russian.  If'n I had the money, I do it!
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 11:28:13 am »

Well.  Well Well well .. and all that.

A remembrance.  The .44 Colt as marketed today .. is a .44 and will have a .429 barrel and will shot .429/.430 bullets.  Which makes it a perfect candidate for .44 Russian cases.  For myself, I load down anyway so the 44 Russian case is perfect. 

Most Uberti offerings in 44 these days have chambers cut for 44 Special, regardless of stamping.  The gun may well say 44 Colt, but will probably chamber clear out to 44 Special.  There are exceptions though.  Some 44 Colt marked guns are actually short chambered.  I'd suggest taking a couple of resized/de-primed cases with ya to test the waters if ya will.

45s are also better optioned today than some year ago.  A 45 Colt chamber'd gun will digest 45 Schofield as well as Cowboy 45 Special.  I am personally not a fan of conversions chambered for 6 45 Colt.  I think the chamber walls are too thin if they do proof for 45 Colt.  Although I do personally shoot a pair of 45 Schofield chambered Open Tops with C45S cases and BP.

The only Type 1s, as mentioned my Abilene were ASM.  Finding one or two in 44 that work would be akin to a miracle.  Keeping them working would be near impossible.  Not a good Idea.

My own winter plan this year is to convert two Pietta 1860s to cartridge with Kirst Konverters.  5 Shot cylinders.  Nice thick chamber walls.

Now, just to add to your quandary, my own personal choice would be (I already have them) a pair of 1871/72 Open Tops, chambered in 44 Colt.  After correcting the Barrel to Arbor fit, really nice guns.  And incidentally, any Uberti built Open Top guns will require a close fitting of the barrel to Arbor and most always correction of the depth of the arbor in the barrel lug.

Ah yes.  So many toys.  Such tiny little pay checks. (sigh)
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Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 07:10:34 pm »

Coffin maker,

That's the reason I didn't buy the Open Tops or RM's they had in 45 Colt, I just don't trust there to be enough meat left in the cylinder walls.  I figure the 44's should give me about 0.012+ more cylinder wall thickness, which makes me much more comfortable.  Not to mention the original conversions were to 44 Colt (I know, the larger heeled bullet).

These are actually marked as chambered for 44 Special, I just want to use a period correct cartridge, and they cost no more from Starline than the 44 Specials.  I figure I'll try some 44 Colt loads (seems folks are loading with 22-25 grains of BP), and I may later buy some Russian brass to try.
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 07:12:45 pm »

Troy,

I appreciate all your "help" - really!

However, after what that HRA Henry cost me, I'm not going to much around with modifications.  : Shocked  I like my 44-40's in it.  : Grin
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« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 02:02:31 am »

This OT is in 44 and if the need arises to pair main match .... it's used with the Nickeled 44 Colt Type II above & my 44 Special 73


* My 44 Colt OT.jpg (77.75 KB, 512x288 - viewed 37 times.)

* right side.jpg (72.58 KB, 640x359 - viewed 33 times.)
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« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 08:21:13 am »

Troy,

I appreciate all your "help" - really!

However, after what that HRA Henry cost me, I'm not going to much around with modifications.  : Shocked  I like my 44-40's in it.  : Grin

I feel your pain.  I bought an HRA Henry in 44-40 in June.  I've not used it in a match yet.  Probably will the end of this month at TRR.
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« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 10:45:30 am »

Good Troy ....... GOOD GRIEF!!!!  Shocked

You gotz a brandy knew to yew HRA Henry in JUNE!!  And you haven't played with it YET??  Thats JUNE - JULY - AUGUST - Three months!!  You could go BLIND!!  Cool Depravation like that can cause irreversible Hand Tremmors and uncontrolled SNEEZING.  Lips Sealed Not to mention a runny nose and smelly feet (built upside down??).  Failure to exercise it regular like could also cause seizures (somebody seizure rifle and swipes it).   Cool   Now, get out there and get that rifle DIRTY  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 10:51:23 am »

Good Troy ....... GOOD GRIEF!!!!  Shocked

You gotz a brandy knew to yew HRA Henry in JUNE!!  And you haven't played with it YET??  Thats JUNE - JULY - AUGUST - Three months!!  You could go BLIND!!  Cool Depravation like that can cause irreversible Hand Tremmors and uncontrolled SNEEZING.  Lips Sealed Not to mention a runny nose and smelly feet (built upside down??).  Failure to exercise it regular like could also cause seizures (somebody seizure rifle and swipes it).   Cool   Now, get out there and get that rifle DIRTY  Grin

Oh believe me...it has see range time, just not "match" time!  My only regret was that I didn't use it at the GAF Grand Muster.  I used my Spencer Carbine in 56-50, and had fouling problems ( TDB if this was the actual cause...I'm reloading more ammo with more lube this week) and I had the worst total time!
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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 04:48:14 pm »

You will find Abilene to be an expert on the Cimarron Firearms. He has the inside track for sure.
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