Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 24, 2017, 01:48:22 pm

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Cas City Historical Society (Moderators: St. George, Silver Creek Slim)  |  Topic: AUTHENTICITY and GENUINE WARDROBE IN WESTERN FILMS 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: AUTHENTICITY and GENUINE WARDROBE IN WESTERN FILMS  (Read 3173 times)
levisurfer
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« on: July 29, 2017, 02:10:43 pm »


Hey!
Love the old photos showing real authentic and genuine cowboys of the Wild West period.
I am intrigued by the use of collared shirts by so many cowboys.  I have been told by numerous people "in the know" that collards did not come in on shirts till late that century.  These images tend to suffuse otherwise.
I am a keen serious amateur photographer and filmmaker from the UK and love to film westerns in Arizona.  WE tend to aim for the 1880s as that gives us options to use older Civil War weapons as well as the 1873 Colt and Winchester.  Plus it gives us more latitude when it comes to gearing the cowboys up in genuine wardrobe, boots and weapons.

Can anyone give us some honest and authoritative advice on the wardrobe of that period.  Our next film will be set in southern AZ in or around 1880s and we will have a Doctor, Sheriff, lawmen and 5 outlaws.  The outlaws will be mainly 20s - 30s with one older outlaw in his 50s. 
What about facial hair?  I see moustaches were popular.  But what about beards, full beards, short beards, stubble, 5 o'clock shadows?
Any advice would be great appreciated and any more photographs to help us "style our cowboys would be great. 
My email address is paulv@paulv.co.uk
And if you would like to see the trailer to my last 60 minute western just let me know.
Thanks
Paul
Logged
wildman1
American Plainsmen Society
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2560



« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 04:11:44 pm »

Should be some historically knowledgeable folks on CasCity.
wM1
Logged

WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
G Bulldog Grainisland III
Active citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 28



« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 10:09:39 am »

I've also thougth that collars early on were attachable, not fixed.

Anyhow, would love to see your trailer!

-Bulldog
Logged
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 01:46:01 pm »

The term collarless shows a lack of knowledge anyway, if someone uses that term for a banded collar shirt it shows their lack of knowledge. 

If you don't understand that statement it's time to do some real research.

Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Online Online

Posts: 4269


« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 10:53:49 am »

Well ...... Picky Picky Picky   Roll Eyes

Caffeine level a little low eh.

Coffinmaker
Logged
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 11:53:51 am »

No people that really know what they are talking about know the proper terms.

A banded collar is a collar.   There are several types of collars besides a fold down type.  Knowledge is good to have and teaching it to people sometimes pisses them off because they really don't want to learn.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Online Online

Posts: 4269


« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 03:04:28 pm »

I can agree whole heartedly Del.  Sometimes though, it's all in how you phrase the lesson??

Coffinmaker (Whom absolutely cannot abide the term "CLONE."   Wink

Logged
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 12:58:23 pm »

I can agree whole heartedly Del.  Sometimes though, it's all in how you phrase the lesson??

Coffinmaker (Whom absolutely cannot abide the term "CLONE."   Wink



It's like I told my step-daughter last summer, "I won't waste my time discussing politics with someone who failed civics class in HS."

And I always buy cloned potatoes.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Online Online

Posts: 4269


« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 04:39:55 pm »

Whoa!!!  Great information!!  I've often wondered why ALL the Russets at the Super Market were all the SAME SIZE  Shocked

Coffinmaker
Logged
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 04:59:05 pm »

Whoa!!!  Great information!!  I've often wondered why ALL the Russets at the Super Market were all the SAME SIZE  Shocked

Coffinmaker

Ever grown potatoes?  You cut a piece and plant it, that's cloning.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Books OToole
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2249


Michael Tatham


« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 12:29:40 pm »

The term collarless shows a lack of knowledge anyway, if someone uses that term for a banded collar shirt it shows their lack of knowledge. 

If you don't understand that statement it's time to do some real research.



But "they" are always going to refer to Smith & Wesson Safety Hammerless revolvers as lemon-squeezers and the 26th President as Teddy. (He loathed the nick name.)

Books
Logged

G.I.L.S.

K.V.C.
N.C.O.W.S. 2279 - Senator
Hiram's Rangers C-3
G.A.F. 415
S.F.T.A.
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 12:52:39 pm »

Yep and it's a waste of time working with people who don't want to learn the proper terms.   


I just don't bother any more.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
River City John
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3397


Mr. & Mrs. John Covert


« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 02:19:53 pm »

Yep and it's a waste of time working with people who don't want to learn the proper terms.   


I just don't bother any more.


Except with me, of course. You must take pity on my dim wits and patiently explain everything. IN DETAIL. Grin

RCJ
Logged

"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275
http://www.cascity.com/posseprofiles/River_City_John
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 05:15:46 pm »

Except with me, of course. You must take pity on my dim wits and patiently explain everything. IN DETAIL. Grin

RCJ

But you listen and want to learn the proper terms.   Wink
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Ben Beam
SASS Affiliated Merchant (#105892)
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 249



WWW
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 07:43:14 pm »

Hey!
Love the old photos showing real authentic and genuine cowboys of the Wild West period.
I am intrigued by the use of collared shirts by so many cowboys.  I have been told by numerous people "in the know" that collards did not come in on shirts till late that century.  These images tend to suffuse otherwise.
I am a keen serious amateur photographer and filmmaker from the UK and love to film westerns in Arizona.  WE tend to aim for the 1880s as that gives us options to use older Civil War weapons as well as the 1873 Colt and Winchester.  Plus it gives us more latitude when it comes to gearing the cowboys up in genuine wardrobe, boots and weapons.

Can anyone give us some honest and authoritative advice on the wardrobe of that period.  Our next film will be set in southern AZ in or around 1880s and we will have a Doctor, Sheriff, lawmen and 5 outlaws.  The outlaws will be mainly 20s - 30s with one older outlaw in his 50s. 
What about facial hair?  I see moustaches were popular.  But what about beards, full beards, short beards, stubble, 5 o'clock shadows?
Any advice would be great appreciated and any more photographs to help us "style our cowboys would be great. 
My email address is paulv@paulv.co.uk
And if you would like to see the trailer to my last 60 minute western just let me know.
Thanks
Paul

Paul,

I think it’s great that you’re taking the time and making the effort to research this. I know from experience that it can be difficult to find good sources on a lot of this information, and that many of the sources (even primary ones) seem to disagree. It’s hard to trust a lot of online sites that promise to sell “authentic” costumes and then carry things like “brothel inspector” badges.

Since you’re researching a specific time period, things get quite a bit easier since we have lots of photography from the era. Cabinet cards from that period (around 1880) had some very specific characteristics: they usually had square corners, and were mounted on heavy card stock. The faces and backs of the cards were often different colors, and the faces were often dark colors as opposed to white. The photographer’s name on the back was often large and very ornate, as opposed to the earlier ones which were usually rather small and plain (although use of gold and full back designs tended to be found later).

Using these identifiers, do a google image search for “cabinet card” and you’ll find hundreds of photos that will show clothing, facial hair, and other accoutrements.

No matter what you do, you’ll end up with someone telling you you’re wrong. If it was all figured out, we wouldn’t need historians. Wink

Good luck, and let us know how your project goes!
Logged

Ben Beam & Co. -- Bringing You a New Old West -- Reproduction Old West Ephemera for re-enactors, living historians, set dressing, chuckwagons, props, or just for fun!
http://www.BenBeam.com
boilerplatejackson
Master Tailor
NCOWS
Very Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 87


Mastor Tailor


« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 08:21:16 pm »

A good book on period clothing depicting clothing worn by Cowboys on the Northern Plains is titled "I see by your Outfit" by  Tom Lindmier and Steve Mount is worth borrowing and reading. So is the book "Thoughts on Mens Shirts in America 1750-1900 " by William L. Brown. and get a hold of a replica Montgomery Ward Catalog from the era is also a good source of information on what was worn. Band collar, round fall collar, pointed fall collar, Most dress shirts had button on collars. Work shirts had sewn on collars.
Logged
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2017, 12:50:44 pm »

Another good source is the Solomon Butcher Collection.  https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award98/nbhihtml/pshome.html

Covers all walks of life, there are many things in there that goes against the grain of what a lot of people think.   

On the subject of collars, Ned Dunlap foreman of the Watson Ranch has an interesting one in this 1901 picture.  Now in all fairness it was at the time of an Old Settlers parade, but I'm thinking I doubt that was the only shirt like that around. 


* 12639v.jpg (227.39 KB, 1000x767 - viewed 91 times.)
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2017, 12:54:14 pm »

Another one, but smaller and not made from from the negatives is the LOC's John Grabill collection.   

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/grabill/

I was lucky enough to know his Great Nephew and attended a couple lectures on "Uncle John" before Don passed away. 
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2017, 01:00:00 pm »

Good luck with your searches, also pictures with out context such as some idea of date and location are really not that useful.  Could have been taken in a New York studio for what that is worth. 




* gettyimages-50787046.jpg (161.58 KB, 426x639 - viewed 48 times.)
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
River City John
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3397


Mr. & Mrs. John Covert


« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2017, 02:21:42 pm »

Another one, but smaller and not made from from the negatives is the LOC's John Grabill collection.   

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/grabill/

I was lucky enough to know his Great Nephew and attended a couple lectures on "Uncle John" before Don passed away. 

Interesting in that he's carrying a cap 'n' ball in 1901.
RCJ
Logged

"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275
http://www.cascity.com/posseprofiles/River_City_John
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2017, 02:44:47 pm »

Interesting in that he's carrying a cap 'n' ball in 1901.
RCJ

Likely a prop for the Old Settlers Parade. 

Rounds in the belt appear to be 45-70.


* 10725v.jpg (148.88 KB, 699x762 - viewed 66 times.)
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Online Online

Posts: 4269


« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2017, 12:16:35 pm »

Super interesting.  Same cartridge belt but two completely different holsters.  I'd really like to have a shirt like that one. 
Logged
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2017, 12:58:48 pm »

Super interesting.  Same cartridge belt but two completely different holsters.  I'd really like to have a shirt like that one. 

Ain't hard, just make a standard bib shirt and make a larger collar to button down.  Need to take a picture of what I have added to every bib shirt I have made and yes I can document it.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Abilene
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2296



WWW
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2017, 01:09:20 pm »

Hmm, I notice the original poster has not returned to comment on the suggestions received here or the identical question he posed to the NCOWS forum.
Logged

Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24289



« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2017, 01:19:11 pm »

Happens often in a deep discussion, still a good thread.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Cas City Historical Society (Moderators: St. George, Silver Creek Slim)  |  Topic: AUTHENTICITY and GENUINE WARDROBE IN WESTERN FILMS « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.077 seconds with 21 queries.