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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Chronograph testing 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Chronograph testing  (Read 1960 times)
Bunk Stagnerg
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« on: July 27, 2017, 01:43:14 pm »


Hello the Camp!

I was asked a question not long ago by one of my smokes-some-what-less shooting friends as to what kind of velocity I get out of my 1860 Army using either a round ball or a regular bullet.

I remembered some tests Bottom Dealing Mike did some time ago with ball and a couple of types and weight bullets in an Old Army, but it made me curious about what my Colt (Pietta) 1860 Army would do with the load I use.

I have a chronograph which has been used to check smokeless loads in .45ACP and 7.62 NATO but never have I checked to see what 30 grains of FFFg, felt lube wad, and a round ball does in my 1860 Army.

My concern is all the ejected Carbonized Randomly Accelerated Particles (CRAP) associated with real gun powder interfering with the reading or damaging the screen on my Chrony brand machine.

What would be a safe distance barrel to screen and would any other protection be needed? My chrono work on both the 7.62 NATO and .45 ACP was having the start screen 10 feet from the muzzle do you think that would that be too close?

I might also check the Sharps percussion carbine using a 450 grain Moose Molds ringtail bullet and from 30 to 60 grains of either FFg Olde Eynsford, FFg GOEX, or Swiss 1 ½ in a Hahn tube. I would suspect that 10 feet might be a tad close for that fire breather.

Any thoughts, or recommendations would be appreciated. This is just a curiosity thing since I have shot to zero the guns and they do hit the targets with pleasing regularity right where I point them (as long as I do the pointing correctly)  Velocity is sufficient to do the job and I really could care less how quickly the ball gets there since the targets are not moving

Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2017, 02:20:28 pm »

When graphing black powder guns try shooting thru a hole.  Make the hole small enough and place it far enough from the muzzle to catch the scattering stuff and let the bullet pass mostly free of junk.  Ten feet is good for the screens and five feet is about right for the hole.  I do this and it works well with my Ohler 33 graph.  What you make the hole in and what exact size it is is up to you.

DD-MDA
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Yeso Bill
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 05:43:35 pm »

I just measured mine.  I've been shooting BP through a Pact Pro 8' 6" from the bench the last 90 days with no screen.  The only problems I have had is light conditions and wind.   I suspect each brand will vary. 

Upon thought, our wind might be dispersing the smoke & ash long before it gets close to the chrony.   Grin
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 06:11:03 pm »

thanks guys I had a suspicion that something like that would be  be required
Bunk
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greyhawk
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 09:03:42 pm »

thanks guys I had a suspicion that something like that would be  be required
Bunk

Bunk
I have a RCBS ammomaster - no problems so far
Have shot my colt , a flintlock, couple of patch ball guns over it to date - no screeney thingys used - it has a cable connecting the readout to the main piece and I just reel her out full length and shoot - it would be about twenty feet I reckon - light messes it up - will not work in full sun - need solid shade but not too dark - I usually set up in the shadow of a big tall tree but out away from it  - mid afternoon is good, plenty of light to shoot but you can use that long shadow - thought the ML patches might have been a problem but dont seem to be - at that distance they about done in I think. 
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wildman1
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2017, 04:02:27 am »

Been using a Chrony for BP loads for 20+ years. Just put tape across the front to keep the lube from sticking to the Chrony. If you get dust etc. on the light sensors clean em with a Q-tip and alcohol. Don't need no hole thingy.
wM1
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Noz
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 05:45:33 am »

The readings can be horribly erratic if your Chrony decides that the wad under the ball is in fact a portion of the projectile
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Noz
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greyhawk
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 08:34:39 am »

The readings can be horribly erratic if your Chrony decides that the wad under the ball is in fact a portion of the projectile

My cap gun works ok with grease over but I get what you are sayin - my son tried lube discs under the ball one time and they turned into tracer rounds - set fire to the paper target at twenty yards - no kiddin you could see the firetrail all the way to the target !
Patches from the muzzleloader rifles are about spent by time they go 20feet - is why I reel that cable out to max for my setup. Have had no problems with it.   
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john boy
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 07:19:13 pm »

... 128gr ball
30gr FFFg - 760fps
25gr FFFg = 730fps
40gr FFFg = 840fps
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 08:30:12 pm »

Thanks Noz
I never thought of that. I guess that when doing this test I will either put a dab of lube over the ball, messy as that is, or just use a solid all lube wad under the ball. That is  good point because you can find lube soaked  felt wads (Bottom Dealing Mike method) laying on the ground around the target and in one case stuck in the paper target which was about 20 yards down range.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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Noz
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2017, 12:02:27 pm »

Some of us have been playing with this stuff for a while!
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Noz
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wildman1
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2017, 04:07:23 pm »

30+ years, cap and ball or flinters.
wM1
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 04:41:16 pm »

Boy oh Boy I'll tell ya!!  The amount of information floating around out there is just plain STAGGERING!!  Then you run into guys like me.  Never owned a Chrono.  Don't really care to own a Chrono.  When it comes to specific velocity of my loads ..... You Don't Know Just How Much I Don't Care (Stolen famous Movie Line). 

Einstein once said, you don't need to remember anything that has been written down.  In that vein, I have never felt the necessity to verify information that has already been determined by "others" and they wrote it down.  All I gotta do is get up my Google Foo and go seek.  Further, most folks who have written it all down have run loads that are near the top for a specific caliber/type of gun.  For me, useless information as I load down.  A lot.  All I need to do is rattle a steel plate.  Anything more than that is a waste of powder and recoil.  NO desire to duplicate the performance of our forefathers.  I also like to cut the amount of smoke so I can see said steel plate.  Since I shoot APP, even loaded down, I get plenty of smoke.  Really FUN!!

Now, the question begs ...... what does this have to do with the OP??  Nothing.  Nada.  ZIP (infamous gun failure) and .. ZERO.  But .. the boards have been really quiet.  I am bored out of my skull and needed a topic to pick on.  Even though I have no meaningful information to contribute.  Oh Well.  Here I are bugging everybody.

This post may be ignored.  Whole or in Part.  For better or worser.  In sickness (I are a sick puppy) or in health ..... you all know the rest.
HAPPY SATURDAY!!  I'll be Annealing cases all evening.  Oh Boy!!

Coffinmaker
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 08:18:22 pm »

Ok, it may be info needed for testing new bp "thingys".  Other than that who knows??

On another note, sick puppy?
 Get well !!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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greyhawk
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 08:47:55 pm »

Boy oh Boy I'll tell ya!!  The amount of information floating around out there is just plain STAGGERING!!  Then you run into guys like me.  Never owned a Chrono.  Don't really care to own a Chrono.  When it comes to specific velocity of my loads ..... You Don't Know Just How Much I Don't Care (Stolen famous Movie Line). 

Einstein once said, you don't need to remember anything that has been written down.  In that vein, I have never felt the necessity to verify information that has already been determined by "others" and they wrote it down.  All I gotta do is get up my Google Foo and go seek.  Further, most folks who have written it all down have run loads that are near the top for a specific caliber/type of gun.  For me, useless information as I load down.  A lot.  All I need to do is rattle a steel plate.  Anything more than that is a waste of powder and recoil.  NO desire to duplicate the performance of our forefathers.  I also like to cut the amount of smoke so I can see said steel plate.  Since I shoot APP, even loaded down, I get plenty of smoke.  Really FUN!!

Now, the question begs ...... what does this have to do with the OP??  Nothing.  Nada.  ZIP (infamous gun failure) and .. ZERO.  But .. the boards have been really quiet.  I am bored out of my skull and needed a topic to pick on.  Even though I have no meaningful information to contribute.  Oh Well.  Here I are bugging everybody.

This post may be ignored.  Whole or in Part.  For better or worser.  In sickness (I are a sick puppy) or in health ..... you all know the rest.
HAPPY SATURDAY!!  I'll be Annealing cases all evening.  Oh Boy!!

Coffinmaker

I used ta think the same - then I started mixin up charcoal and a couple other things and testin the results - its been fun climbing the ladder from Wano up past Goex to closin in on swiss - I plink long range a couple times a year with a cheap lil sharps and shot to shot over the chrony shows up stuff to do with loadin technique that helps some for that game - bought it for a purpose but its been a bit of fun too .........
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 07:55:11 am »

Like I said this is a curiosity thing.
My cap guns always hit what I point them at as long as they are pointed right.
My suspect is the load used is some where in the high .38 Special to low .44 special range which is OK. I have better arms to defend my self  with. The cap guns are just for fun.
Thanks guys for the help. When it cools off some I may report the findings if they prove any thing worth mentioning.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 07:59:03 am »

Hey Coffinmaker: I'm agreeing with ya on your last post, even pullin ya out from under the bus for the possibility of postin a non OP post, but I do believe it's a good post and has merit. Grin

 In the 47 years I've been reloading and shooting everything from smokeless powder shotgun, centerfire handgun and rifle, blackpowder cartridge, cap and ball, and muzzleloader rifle, I've never owned or used a chronograph. Never have had the need or desire for one. If given one, I'd give it a shot and if not needed, maybe sell it and buy some new spurs Grin. (even though I've never worn them or wanted any). Shocked

When reloading I've always researched whatever I was loading, staying within whatever load chart I was using for primer, powder and bullet or shot. I'd stray some maybe not using the loads .357 diameter Speer 125 g HP and using say a Sierra 125g HP bullet. Same with primers, might use a different brand once in a while if they were close to the same ignition factor. If a tested load was rated at x fps velocity from a 6" pistol barrel and I was using a 4" barrel, well I'd just subtract around 50 fps for each one inch or add if the other way around and have an idea of my handloads velocity. Same with rifle loads, same with whatever blackpowder firearm I was shooting. As long as other shooters have tested and chronographed what I'm reloading or loading whether it be smokeless or blackpowder and I'm at or within safe likeness of their loads, I know approximately how fast that bullet or shot is traveling. If it's hitting steel, a tin can, a target of opportunity, a paper target, four legged game or birds on the fly--that's my objective--and to do it accurately. Oh yeh, to make a bang and smoke when shooting black too.

No rub on those of you who like to use a chrono and need to know the fps of your loads to the tenth degree. I'm fussy about a lot of things when I reload and shoot, but the chrono bit "ain't" one of them. As CM stated, the other guys have already written it down and that's good enough for me, I can load up or down and have a ball field knowledge of velocity/fps. Again, if a chrono is anybody's need, no sweat, I'm not belittlin' ya in any way, JMO of what's needed and not needed. As CM posted, this post is not in the spirit of the OP's original post intention (but I think it is) and as good Ol' CM posted-- "the boards have been really quiet", so here's something to read on a bright Sunday morning. Grin   Good shooting everyone. Crow Choker
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Noz
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 09:00:30 am »

In my life before cowboy, I was obsessed with Max speed combined with accuracy in 41 Magnum Revolvers.  My test bed was a Ruger Super Black Hawk Hunter Bisley in 41 Mag.
I developed a safe but unpleasant load that chronyed 1875 fps with a 175 gr JHP bullet and a whole lot of W296 powder.
The chrony was invaluable in this case to help me know where I was in the testing.
I went to cowboy then black powder and the chrony has been setting in it's box for 10 years or so.
I see no need for one when your standard, max and minimum loads are all "fill case until bullets compresses load by 1/8 inch".
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Noz
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 11:28:45 am »

Yes Siree Bob.  Who's Bob anyway??  Bob for Apples??  Anyway .....

Like Noz, there was a time I wanted a really nasty load for my 4 5/8 inch Ruger Blackhawk.  Twaz my carry gun when I went walkabout in the treez.  I wanted a load that would walk the walk, talk the talk and slap the KRAP outa anything I could hit.  Oh, it was .45 Colt.  the load I worked up with Winchester Powders was a 265Gr cast Keith type semi-wadcutter.  It was absolutely NO FUN to shoot my final load.  I actually wound up taking an Elk with it.  Shot clear through the Elk at 70 paces.

I did get to chronological the load.  I had a friend (had one of those once) who had a chrono.  My load was shoving that 265Gr bullt along at 1520 FPS +/-   It HURT to shoot it.  I had to put big oversize grips on the gun to help spread the whack.  That load in that gun was NASTY.

Now, I'm in a better, calmer place.  Life is simple.  Fill case till you get some compression.  If your dropping the load, make up the difference with Cream-0-Wheat (smells like breakfast).  Simple.  As long as the front sight is on the target rather than the gravel or the lawn, I hit the target and it goes KLANG.  Happiness.

In now way do I mean to be critical of those who pursue knowledge.  Even if it is just for the sake of the knowledge.  Nothing wrong with that.  For me it just takes up time, time that could be better spent finding a really good Ale.  Or ...... annoying others on CAS City  Roll Eyes  Cheesy

Coffinmaker
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 11:23:16 am »

Hi CM!!
If you use butter flavored grits when you shoot it smells like breakfast time in Georgia and I'll bet 45 Dragoon would agree.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 11:39:32 am »

Hmmm .  .  .  .   wonder if ya could get a little "card" of bacon in there too .  .  .  . 

(Sounds good Bunk!)

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 12:14:55 pm »

Noz  had a good reason if "a reason" was needed for a chrono'. I, in my early days of reloading would say at times "to heck" with starting out at the published starting load and go right to the listed maximum or just a little under what was in a load manual. I made a 4" 'Howitzer' out of my duty carried Colt Trooper .357 revolver with hot 110, 125, and 140 grain JHP's and gas checked hard cast bullets using Unique and 2400. OUCH! Them things would beller and buck-even loud with ear plugs. After a short learning stint, I gained some wisdom and self control with the powder measure. (Similar reasoning with CM's 45 Colt Atomic Bombs.) I can see if a shooter was playing around with a lot of unknown powder volumes/weights, a need could be justified for a need to know fps for the 'experiments', but ya would be in the dark of pressure being generated. Reasons for and against using with black powder firearms has already been addressed pretty much.

Reference Coffinmakers "Bob"--who "Bob" is, he comes from the same outfit as "They", as in "They say". Bacon and Cream of Wheat---making me hungry for them...Who is the proverbial "Them"?  Related maybe to "Bob and They"? A SciFi movie was made back in the early fifty's called "Them"! Remember it---starring a young actor by the name of James Arness.
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Darksider-1911 Shooter-BOLD Chambers-RATS-SCORRS-STORM-1860 Henry(1866)-Colt Handgun Lover an' Fan-NRA-"RiverRat"-Conservative American Patriot and Former Keeper & Enforcer of the Law an' Proud of Being Both! >oo
Coffinmaker
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 04:01:05 pm »

Whoa there Choker!!!

WE are not suppose to acknowledge we are old enough to remember a movie titled "THEM."  Nor are we suppose to remember the leading BAD GUY in a movie titled "THE THING" was also James Arness. 

Some times I think I'm an ANTIQUE  Tongue

Coffinmaker

PS:  Thanks fer gettin me out from under dat BUS  Wink
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 07:43:20 am »

My first chronograph was made by Herter's (remember them) that used a pait of pencil leads for screens and had a row of lights to give the number that converted to velocity. I got it for testing loads for checking variation of velocity to get the most accurate loads. It was a PITA to use (try to line up and hit two pencil leads 10 feet apart at 10 feet from the "start" lead.

I got a modern one which was  back in the late 1980's trying to duplicate the ballistics of white box match 7.62 NATO for high power service rifle competition. That one I still have, it still works, but for CAS gun powder loads velocity is not important, and accuracy in measured in "minute of Volkswagon".
I have been around a while also starting with DuPont Orange Extra Sporting Powder and I wish I still had that can.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 11:15:41 am »

Bunk .....

That would actually be "Minute of Volkswagen Micro Bus."

Coffinmaker
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