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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Goex vs Pyrodex part deux 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Goex vs Pyrodex part deux  (Read 2048 times)
Ben Beam
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« on: July 23, 2017, 05:40:32 pm »


I finally managed to track down some genuine BP (Goex). The closest dealer was 25 miles away. He said they can carry a maximum of 50 lbs at a time, which lasts about three days, then two months before they get it back in stock. 

Since I now have both Goex and Pyrodex, I thought I'd try a rudimentary test to see what the difference in corrosion is between the two. I figured I'd get some blued nails from the Home Despot, nestle them in a bit of each, detonate, then check them at varying time lengths to see what happens. One thing I'm guessing will make a difference is the ambient humidity--it's pretty darn dry here in Colorado, and I imagine that will slow down any corrosion.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Vitriol?  Wink
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 07:34:47 pm »

Something to do I guess .... sorta reinventing the wheel project  Undecided



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Ben Beam
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 08:00:59 pm »

In the name of SCIENCE ...or something... really, itís just to satisfy my own curiosity.
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 08:16:58 pm »

It's actually pretty low humidity here at the moment too, just 72%.

I tell you what Ben, I'll save you the trouble and do the test for you.

Just send me your gun and I'll shoot some pyrodex in it and I'll shoot some black powder in mine and leave them overnight in Kentucky humidity and we'll compare.  Grin
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 08:22:34 pm »

Then yeah....it's Something to do  Smiley

but use bright nails *.... a bore is bright

Skip Cadmium (gold color) Case (black) or galvanized (zinc coated)
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 01:22:07 am »

Here are results that other folks have had:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/281879/tp/2/

there are more, but can't find them right now...

yhs
prof marvel

ps: oh... and here is a link on some lube testing , which is why I swear by Lehigh Valley Lube
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion.html
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Ben Beam
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 07:34:13 am »

Prof: ďThere was a problem loading this page:

Your permission set does not allow you to be here. This could be for a number of reasons.Ē  Cry
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 09:02:30 am »

You have to register & log in to the ML forum. It showed 3 steel plates where Pyro RS, Grafs' 3F BP, and 777 were ignited on them and then took closeups @ 24, 48, & 96 hours of leaving them out. Then he rinsed with H2O & nylon brushed then scoured the plate and photos of each after brushing then again after scouring. The T7 came out shiny after scouring. The Graf's BP had some shallow pitting and the Pyro RS had much deeper and more extensive pitting.
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 07:28:16 pm »

Hey Ben,

If your skull numb bored and really need a "project," go for it.  Just keep in mind Einstein once said "there is no reason to remember anything that has been written down."  He also said he saw no real reason to detonate another nuclear bomb.  It was already proven to work.  However, he lamented, things that go BANG can really be fun.

I have found though, sitting out inna parking lot watching the chrome rust is not real entertaining  Shocked

Coffinmaker
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 07:38:21 pm »

Since the fellow used links tohis bucket, i am posting the links only.

hopefully everyoen can see the important ones.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/danieledinger/media/cGF0aDovdGVzdDIuanBn/?ref=

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/danieledinger/FINAL.jpg

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/danieledinger/media/cGF0aDovRklOQUwuanBn/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/danieledinger/media/cGF0aDovSU1HXzIwMTMwODE1XzE5MjAyOV81NDYuanBn/?ref=

I seem to recall JohnBoy or perhapssomeone else frmo the now defunct "Open Range" performed a similar test with similar results.

Interestingly, we see that 777 has the least amount of nastiness! and the 4 pages of thread also referenced comments from Bill KNight (aka The Mad Monkl) about finding that 777 did not appear to have perchlorates!!!!

in which case Hodgdens hasmat chemical list for 777 is incorrect? or they changed the formula in the last several years?

my faith in documentation from corporations is now kaput.

yhs
prof faithless.

ps: I, like Ben, need to get out more, shoot more, and think less.
now that we are getting our required summer monsoons, I can safely go make smoke in the canyon open space.
I must put off some honeydoos and just go!
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 08:18:20 pm »

My Good Perfesser,

You well know, often manufacturers are less than forthcoming with an accurate representation of their proprietary ingredients.  The idea is to keep the Secret Sauce ..... ummm .... Secret??  Or at least to dodge the harmful side effects of their Venom.

You also know, THINKING can be painful.  I had a free thought last week and it took a whole bottle of aspirin to ease the pain.  I shudder at the thought of another ... thought.

The manufacturers of our favorite Snake Oils would rather we not know the harmful side effects.  So they put those ingredients and their effects in microscopic print.  It doesn't mean I'll stop chug-a-lugin the vile stuff.  It just means I don't have to think about the hang over.

Where was I going ........ oh yea ......

Don't be too quick to clutter your mind with too many facts.  Rather, clear your mind of clutter, chill a couple of jugs of snake oil (Ale??) get out in the canyon, bust some caps, burn some powder, make some Boomba and smoke, then thumb your nose at those cubicleites and freeway trolls.

Coffinmaker
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Ben Beam
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 10:43:08 pm »

Since the fellow used links tohis bucket, i am posting the links only.

hopefully everyoen can see the important ones.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/danieledinger/media/cGF0aDovdGVzdDIuanBn/?ref=

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/danieledinger/FINAL.jpg

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/danieledinger/media/cGF0aDovRklOQUwuanBn/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/danieledinger/media/cGF0aDovSU1HXzIwMTMwODE1XzE5MjAyOV81NDYuanBn/?ref=

I seem to recall JohnBoy or perhapssomeone else frmo the now defunct "Open Range" performed a similar test with similar results.

Interestingly, we see that 777 has the least amount of nastiness! and the 4 pages of thread also referenced comments from Bill KNight (aka The Mad Monkl) about finding that 777 did not appear to have perchlorates!!!!

in which case Hodgdens hasmat chemical list for 777 is incorrect? or they changed the formula in the last several years?

my faith in documentation from corporations is now kaput.

yhs
prof faithless.

ps: I, like Ben, need to get out more, shoot more, and think less.
now that we are getting our required summer monsoons, I can safely go make smoke in the canyon open space.
I must put off some honeydoos and just go!
Thanks you very much, Prof. Thatís exactly what I was searching for and couldnít find. Youíre right, no sense in reinventing that wheel. And youíre right, I definitely need to get out and shoot more. Itís a bit tough where I live at the moment, but Iím doing my best. Im excited about getting to use my new BP pistol.
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2017, 06:24:49 pm »

This is interesting I guess, but proving the perchlorate substitute is corrosive is really not big news. Something about doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?
To make life simple I use real "Gun Powder" like it says on some old DuPont cans
 I just clean up with room temp 1:10 moose milk, wipe down with Ballistol (love the smell) and put every thing away.
My only observation is original Du Pont FFFg makes my Lee dippers really dirty. Goex somewhat less, Graf about the same and Olde
Eynsford and Swiss almost no black at all. I have not really studied the fouling produced. Perhaps when we are out of the "triple digit" weather I might come up with some kind of comparison.
I have in the powder locker some "Jim Shockeys Gold" that is four or five years old.  Aware it is APP in disguise and it has been kept stored in reasonable temps. Does it have a shelf life? 
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 08:14:02 pm »

Hi Bunk !!

Ah ...... Dunno.  Haven't even looked it up.  Mine (APP) doesn't stay around long enough to approach any "shelf life."  I do know the past formulations have been really dusty.  Dusty enough to be a nuisance in a progressive loader's powder measure.  The newer formulations are nowhere near as dusty.

Coffinmaker
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 12:41:25 am »

My only observation is original Du Pont FFFg makes my Lee dippers really dirty. Goex somewhat less, Graf about the same and Olde
Eynsford and Swiss almost no black at all. ....

My Good Bunk -
I do believe that is the graphite coating put onto the BP grains by the manufactror manufactor maker .
There was an ancient thread somewhere about "socking the powder" - ie: pouring it iinto an old white tube sock and shuffling it
around to remove the graphite coating.....

ah look, hereare several!
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=2268.10
https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13796
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34026-GOEX-Cartridge-grade
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=38453.5
https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1373030376/36

apparently it is mainly done by Long Range guys... you know those who commune with the wind in order to hit things I can;t even see at 1000 yards :-)

yhs
prof marvel
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 01:40:52 am »

Hey Coffinmaker
We talked a while back about alterations to a couple of old capguns - I just posted my targets over in the old thread - added to my old post - got em sorted ok - thought you might be interested to take a look - seeing as you were partly at fault for me being able to do it - cheers (and thanks to you - Pettifogger and a bunch of others who give us good tips and encouragement for free) Greyhawk
    
Re: Measuring bore/bullets: am I doing this right?
ę Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 07:35:17 pm Ľ

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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 02:03:10 pm »

Thanks  Prof Marvel about "socking" powder.
My question is
What are socks?
This country boy wants to know.
Bunk
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2017, 05:40:45 pm »

Bunk,
It is putting powder into a loose stocking and shaking it to sift out the "fines" powdery gunpowder that can cause irregularities in loadings unless it is removed. Then you are left with a consistent grain size of powder and will get more consistent loadings.
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2017, 07:50:20 pm »

Bunk,
It is putting powder into a loose stocking and shaking it to sift out the "fines" powdery gunpowder that can cause irregularities in loadings unless it is removed. Then you are left with a consistent grain size of powder and will get more consistent loadings.

Bunk
one country boy to another - you might be able to buy a piece of 40mesh stainless steel screen in an ag supply shop (what we use in sprayer screens) 40 mesh will take out FFFF and finer -- I make me own powder and improvising screens saved me some dollars - just got to carefully measure to make sure ya got the right size - this also works great for anybody that buys 4FA or 5FA powder (fireworks grades) to save some dollars - so I'll write with that in sight.
so ..... in the kitchen shop I found a 12 mesh vegetable strainer, everything thats called FG and 4FA should go through 12 mesh so ya can proly skip that one
..........you will get some aluminium window screen thats 16 mesh - it holds FG and passes FFG
..........back to the kitchen shop again you will find 20 mesh or 24 mesh strainers - so depending on what you shoot most of - 20 or 24 mesh holds FFG passes FFFG. . just make a choice there do ya want more FFG or more FFFG
.......... now your 40 mesh stainless filter screen holds FFFG passes FFFFG  (couldnt find that in the kitchen shop but I had some in my workshop anyways - its the important one)
......... I spend a bit of time in rag shops looking for good patch material for my frontloaders and in there you should find a sheer (see through) material that goes right on 100mesh - dunno what its called but the gal behind the counter will enjoy helpin you - imagine watching those old movies - Arabian nights or what? the dance of the seven veils where we all thought this gal is gonna take it all off and didnt - she threw some of those flimsy veils up in the air and a guy slices one of em in two with a big ole sword (scmitar?) - well thats the stuff you want - get a yard of it - makes great filter screen for all sorts of things - I use that to take the mill dust out of my FFFFG -- even just that one if you have dusty powder would work well - better n a sock I reckon
I just make little rectangle screen boxes aboot 10"x 8" outa 3x1 pine and tack/glue/staple the mesh to the bottom - but the kitchen strainers just use em as is.  Always go from coarsest screen to finest - thatway any fines you generate in the shaking process end up where ya want em.
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 05:10:02 am »

Or use an actual cotton athletic sock. Dump the powder in it, hold it by the top and the bottom and shift it back and forth. The fines will stick to the inside of the sock. If you want to reuse the sock just wash it. The more powder you put in at one time the less effective it will be.
wM1
PS most of the dust in BP is graphite that is used to coat the powder granules.
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 09:44:17 am »

Or use an actual cotton athletic sock. Dump the powder in it, hold it by the top and the bottom and shift it back and forth. The fines will stick to the inside of the sock. If you want to reuse the sock just wash it. The more powder you put in at one time the less effective it will be.
wM1
PS most of the dust in BP is graphite that is used to coat the powder granules.

Maybe I got a bit carried away with that !
Coupla points
1)no in my blackpowder it aint graphite I dont put graphite in the mix at all - charcoal - saltpeter - sulphur
2)my opine the correct size screens would do a better job than rollin it round in a sock which to me seems like a darn good idee invented by some clever dude who couldnt find or afford the screens.
3) I added in some extraneous detail cuz some of us used to shoot copious quantities of fireworks grades 4FA and 5FA in order to save a buck - its the same qualty powder just not as carefully graded (screened) - I alus bought the ungraphited version ifn I could get it - 25lb bags of 5FA -ug Goex - up until the Moosic plant blew up in the late 1990's - then Chinese stuff after that
ps aploogies for borin ya with this - thought it might help someone is all 
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 10:41:42 am »

Most folks don't roll their own. For those that don't and shoot dirty powder, sock it. Iffen ya use Schuetzen, Swiss Or OE no need ta sock it.
wM1
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 10:55:32 am »

man oh man that seem to slide past every one...It's a joke son
I actually wear socks and shoes every day not just for church on Sunday.
At CAS range going through that extra "socking" would be a waste of time.
I like my gun powder straight from the can. Real gun powder that is. No subs for Bunk.
Bunk
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 05:44:55 pm »


At CAS range going through that extra "socking" would be a waste of time.

 Waste of time in silhouette, midrange and long range bptr as well.
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 08:41:31 pm »

Waste of time in silhouette, midrange and long range bptr as well.

Ranch 13
we were buyin that GOEX 5FA for about half the price (or less) of canned rifle powder - same plant, same powder, just not as carefully graded (although it was pretty good) later the chinese stuff was way more variable (cheaper too and all we could get for a while) 4FA Chinese ran all the way from a few grains of cannon to FFFFg priming - most of it FFG and FFFG - screening that stuff was a definite plus - cut my velocity variation over the chrony to less than half - our choice is wano or swiss - most blokes put up with wano because they reckon swiss is too dear - last time I looked wano was $90 a kilo and swiss way over $100 -I still have GOEX on hand and a fair amount of graded out chinese - would not need to buy powder for several yrs anyway - my set of screens cost me less than 20bucks - it maybe a waste of time with the expensive powders but has paid off my end . Still have not took the sock idea seriously tho.
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