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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  1860 Henry (Moderators: Flint, Major 2)  |  Topic: 1860 competition use... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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flatapple
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« on: July 03, 2017, 10:34:11 am »


I have been asked to trade a safe queen for a Navy Arms 1860, made in 1989.  I would like to know how many use the 1860 for match shooting?  If so, is there anything I need to do differently from shooting my usual 73?  The 1860 is a brass framed military style, also I have never shot a 1860.
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BOSS #217
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 11:27:03 am »

You will hold it and load it differently.  But note that made in '89 may mean that the internals are earlier style which means no spares available and no shortstroke or other go-fast parts that fit (you did say "competition use").  Pettifogger or Coffinmaker can clarify that.
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 12:18:51 pm »

I have a 2015 production Taylor's Uberti 1860 I use as my main match rifle.  Slower, but has a lot of style! Grin
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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flatapple
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2017, 12:28:43 pm »

I have a 2015 production Taylor's Uberti 1860 I use as my main match rifle.  Slower, but has a lot of style! Grin

That's what I am looking for..."The Cool Factor"!
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BOSS #217
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 02:00:24 pm »

I currently have four 1860 Henry rifles I shoot regularly as my Main Match rifles.  I use to have 5.  Before I retired, I also built CAS rifles for competition.  ALL of my Henry's have been Short Stroked and tuned for CAS game play.  HOWEVER:

The 1860 you describe is almost considered an antique in common parlance.  I haven't been inside a Uberti that old in a Loooooong time.  You will find the internal parts are different from the internal parts of current build guns.  Uberti DOES NOT SUPPORT parts for those old guns.  If something breaks or if you screw something up, your screwed.  Real simple concept.  The Carrier Block, Carrier Block Arm,  Bolt, Firing Pin, Firing Pin Extension Rod, links, pivot pins >>> EVERYTHING is different from the new guns.  From the outside, it looks just like the new guns but it isn't.  It's going to be stiff and clunky and iff you screw up parts/springs doing an action job .................  It can be shot and played with as an occasional shooter but I certainly wouldn't push it real hard.

What I am explaining is this:  If you are looking for a really cool CAS rifle RUN AWAY.  This one isn't it.  Watch for a newer build gun or even a new gun and start with something you can get replacement parts for and all the "speed" parts you can carry.

Coffinmaker
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2017, 02:08:53 pm »

Well, true but... My first Henry was a late 1980s Navy Arms I got used in 1995 from a Civil war re-enactor.  I lightened the hammer spring with a square of leather between spring and frame, and it made a huge difference.  Also, I polished the lever and lifter spring ends with fine emory paper, and used RIG grease on the internals.  While not a short stroke kit (which John Wayne would not approve of...) it was very smooth and slick.  In fact, IIRC, the lifter and lever springs, and the extractor were almost identical to original Winchester 1873 ones.

If you are going to shoot 3 or 4 matches a month, yeah, you should probably get something with current parts.  If you are shooting it 10 or 12 times a year, go for it.

These are not toys or movie props.  They are firearms.  They are not defective from the factory! I have many years as a LE and Military armorer, and I am amazed by people who say you should not shoot USGI M1 Carbines, because they are 70 years old. My home defense gun is a 6 digit Inland, post war rebuilt loaded with 110 grain Hornady Critical Defense rounds.  We are talking modern metallurgy, not pre-1900 stuff.  Sure original Winchesters and S&Ws over 100 years old may develop issues, but modern firearms are tougher than we give them credit for.

A short stroke kit on a Henry?? My Gosh, Gus McCrae would roll over in his grave if he were dead!
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 04:01:02 pm »

OK here is what I do... Roll Eyes    I try to put folks with a deal, if it can't be me .

nothing wrong with wanting a Henry ( I have 3,  was 4 just last week,  I sold #4 a circa * 1980 Navy Arms )
I sold my old one to a Reenactor , he wanted it , it was just standing in the safe ( unused ...the spare parts issue)

OD3 has a hell of deal on a Steel Frame right now on this BB ,  
It's the newer design, Priced  (see what I'm doing to myself ) right !


IMHO if you want KOOL and you want a Henry .... (no dog in the fight ) call OD3 and Bob's your Uncle

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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 05:13:51 pm »

Great Idea!  That is an excellent buy on an iron frame...
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 06:09:45 pm »

Tuolumne,

If I had a bunch more band width, a bunch more time and if I thought you'd pay attention, I could explain the problems and wear points that are going to take a beating in a toggle link rifle from being over sprung and ill fitted.  There are more than one or two thing I learned over more than 20 years putting together CAS guns.

Your comparison to a USGI M1 is also somewhat miss-placed.

I could care less what Gus McCrae would do.  I built rifles to play the CAS game with.  It's just a game.  Not a historical reenactment.

Coffinmaker
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 08:07:27 pm »

CM, I am not trying to start a range war, but yes, to some (like you say) SASS is a game, not a historical re-enactment.  And that is fine. To me, however, it is not really a game, but is more of a self indulging, somewhat a historical re-enactment. I could give a dang about speed, scores, and placing.  I shoot for myself, against myself, and enjoy the camaraderie.   That's the nice thing about SASS.  It does not have to mean the same to me as it does to you.  If you remember, one of the guiding principals of SASS was "The John Wayne Test."  Unfortunately that was dropped from the SASS lexicon with the advent of Lighting Links, titanium firing pins, and aluminum follwers for 66/73s.

My M1 carbine analogy was appropriate.  I was not comparing it to a Uberti Henry, but rather saying that modern metallurgy, including 1940s, was far superior to pre-1900 metals.  I have been shooting SASS since 1994, and never personally had a factory SASS gun (UBerti, Marlin, Colt, Rossi, Pietta) break, malfunction, or wear out. I have had original pre-1900 guns break, though.  As a "gunplumber" you would see those examples new and old that do break.  

The fundamental difference between us is that you expect the guns to break, need work, or be junk from the factory, and I do not expect them to break, and have not found them to be junk or need work from the factory.  You have your opinion - which is fine, and I have mine- which is also fine. You have your experiences, I have mine.  They do not need to be the same.  You do not need to agree with me and I do not have to agree with you. You do not have to think like me, and I do not have to think like you.  That's the nice thing about this sport.

Your mileage may vary, and your experiences are different than mine.  
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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greyhawk
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 10:46:19 pm »

I currently have four 1860 Henry rifles I shoot regularly as my Main Match rifles.  I use to have 5.  Before I retired, I also built CAS rifles for competition.  ALL of my Henry's have been Short Stroked and tuned for CAS game play.  HOWEVER:

The 1860 you describe is almost considered an antique in common parlance.  I haven't been inside a Uberti that old in a Loooooong time.  You will find the internal parts are different from the internal parts of current build guns.  Uberti DOES NOT SUPPORT parts for those old guns.  If something breaks or if you screw something up, your screwed.  Real simple concept.  The Carrier Block, Carrier Block Arm,  Bolt, Firing Pin, Firing Pin Extension Rod, links, pivot pins >>> EVERYTHING is different from the new guns.  From the outside, it looks just like the new guns but it isn't.  It's going to be stiff and clunky and iff you screw up parts/springs doing an action job .................  It can be shot and played with as an occasional shooter but I certainly wouldn't push it real hard.

What I am explaining is this:  If you are looking for a really cool CAS rifle RUN AWAY.  This one isn't it.  Watch for a newer build gun or even a new gun and start with something you can get replacement parts for and all the "speed" parts you can carry.

Coffinmaker

Does this apply to the the Uberti made 1866 ? Earlier vintage (its an AA = 1975 made) not doing CAS with it - thought I might but would be only 4 shoots a year.  We do a little rapid fire comp at the local range (no race mods allowed and full case blackpowder required) Load and fire - a couple of us can do 16 maybe 17 on target in one minute - target is a spider body - about an 8 inch circle at 25 yards - you gotta start empty with gun and ammo on a blanket on the ground and stand to shoot - first time we ran it we had 25 guys on the line at once - that did look kinda kool on video later.  Smiley I reckon at least eight out of ten times someone with a yellow boy has won that.   
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Major 2
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 11:44:34 pm »

Yes Sir , it does

My old Henry was [AE] 1979 ,  I had bought it new in Apr. of 1980  from 80 to 88 I used it Reenacting (blanks)
I sold to a Shooter that year (88), in 2008 the guy was selling out his safe, I bought it back... the Idea was to make
Kings Patent Rifle. In talking to Bill English  (the Smith Shop) it could be done for more labor = $$ , but a better candidate was a later gun , he stocked those lifters.
I not wanting to alter my later gun(s) the transition idea stalled.... the Old gun performed fine but with 3 other Henry's , I saw no
need to push the gun.... 
So it sat in the Safe,  occasionally seeing a cleaning rag attention , even got shot one or two times.

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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 11:27:20 am »

It is a good plan, if you are worried about wear/breaking on older rifles,  to only shoot them occasionally.  My .45 1860 Henry, though modern production, will probably only get shot once every couple matches since I am getting the Taylor's .44-40 1866 24" sporting rifle.  I have a couple SAA clones in .44-40 that I will use with the 1866, and I'll use the .45 Open Tops with the Henry when I am feeling particularly "Retro."
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 11:49:32 am »

Well ..... I probably shouldn't have started jumping up and down with indignation.  I've always tried to point out to some of the ill-informed critics of the way SASS/CAS is played, the "game" as it twer, allows all of us to play at our own level, in our own way.  If someone wants to take CAS as the opportunity to dress, arm and play in the same manner as our predecessors, I should not criticize.  After all, it's your dime, spend it as you wish.

My bent as a Gunplumber is/was to get the optimum performance out of the guns available to us.  In the early days of CAS, ALL the guns we play'd with needed help.  Lots of help.  The "Oversprung" rifles and pistols can and will damage themselves quite quickly.  Those damaged parts in many cases are no longer available.  Case in point is the Lever Cam in a Toggle Rifle.  The side spring that rides that cam to control the lever, eats the cam surface and creates a Burr that in turn damages the inside of the side plate.  The upper cam use to be a replaceable part.  Little itty bitty part.  No more.  You wear that cam over and today you have to replace the entire lever.  There are a bunch of like wear points.

I do not necessarily recommend everybody Short Stroke their Rifle.  I do recommend some action work and replacing the way heavy springs.  The rifle will live lots longer and be more user friendly to play with at the same time.  At least now, those springs can be replaced rather than needing a smith to reduce the springs the hard way.  Biggest bang for the buck is a little action work and a change of springs.

Most important thing is to get out there and bust some caps and burn some powder.

Coffinmaker
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2017, 02:46:14 pm »

Well ..... I probably shouldn't have started jumping up and down with indignation.  I've always tried to point out to some of the ill-informed critics of the way SASS/CAS is played, the "game" as it twer, allows all of us to play at our own level, in our own way.  If someone wants to take CAS as the opportunity to dress, arm and play in the same manner as our predecessors, I should not criticize.  After all, it's your dime, spend it as you wish.

My bent as a Gunplumber is/was to get the optimum performance out of the guns available to us.  In the early days of CAS, ALL the guns we play'd with needed help.  Lots of help.  The "Oversprung" rifles and pistols can and will damage themselves quite quickly.  Those damaged parts in many cases are no longer available.  Case in point is the Lever Cam in a Toggle Rifle.  The side spring that rides that cam to control the lever, eats the cam surface and creates a Burr that in turn damages the inside of the side plate.  The upper cam use to be a replaceable part.  Little itty bitty part.  No more.  You wear that cam over and today you have to replace the entire lever.  There are a bunch of like wear points.

I do not necessarily recommend everybody Short Stroke their Rifle.  I do recommend some action work and replacing the way heavy springs.  The rifle will live lots longer and be more user friendly to play with at the same time.  At least now, those springs can be replaced rather than needing a smith to reduce the springs the hard way.  Biggest bang for the buck is a little action work and a change of springs.

Most important thing is to get out there and bust some caps and burn some powder.

Coffinmaker

Well put, Pard,  and I do agree with you you when it is framed like that!
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2017, 09:48:21 pm »

The early 66s are a whole different animal.  The OP asked about an "old" Henry.  The easiest way to tell an "old" Henry from the newer style is to measure the diameter of the firing pin extension.  The old ones are +/- .392.  The newer ones and the current 73s are 66s measure +/- .352.  If it has the .392 diameter firing pin the bolt and other parts are different.  I would pass on it.
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  1860 Henry (Moderators: Flint, Major 2)  |  Topic: 1860 competition use... « previous next »
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