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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: Measuring bore/bullets: am I doing this right? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Measuring bore/bullets: am I doing this right?  (Read 2456 times)
Doug.38PR
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« on: June 24, 2017, 09:58:42 pm »


I am using a RCBS digital caliper to try to figure out what size bullets to get for my .new .44-40 Uberti carbine.

I measure the factory bullet at .426

The end of my rifle bore reads .416 at best (Huh)

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Coal Creek Griff
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 10:13:50 pm »

Well, you shouldn't rely on measuring the bore directly.  Do a search here and on the internet about slugging your bore.  Basically you drive a pure lead slug through the bore and measure the slug.  Likely you'll come up with something closer to .429 (groove diameter).

CC Griff.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2017, 12:04:51 pm »

And in addition to the above. 

It twood seam the Manufacturers, both US and Italian, have settled on .429 as a standard for ALL .44s (cartridge guns).  So ... any new manufacture .44 "should" measure out to .429 and be most happy with .429 or .430 cast bullets.

Coffinmaker
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2017, 09:21:22 pm »

And in addition to the above. 

It twood seam the Manufacturers, both US and Italian, have settled on .429 as a standard for ALL .44s (cartridge guns).  So ... any new manufacture .44 "should" measure out to .429 and be most happy with .429 or .430 cast bullets.

Coffinmaker
[/quot

+1.  Don't overthink this.  Uberti has a chart listing its groove diameters so a .429 or .430 should work just fine.  I NEVER slug a bore unless there is a problem.  There are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation and 99.999999999999999999999% have never had their bores slugged and work just fine.  This is sort of like the guys that say the first thing you need to do with a new revolver, even before you have shot it, is to open the forcing cone to 11 degrees.  Ah, no.
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mehavey
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 08:48:00 pm »

Uberti`73/44-40 --> 0.429" for cast.
(Both pistol & rifle)
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 09:04:00 pm »

These factory losds are .426 from what my caliper say.  I dont lnow if goes down the bore easier..but I feel like I'm shooting a .22.  Almost no recoil and I didnt need any hearing protection. 
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 10:10:14 pm »

I suppose i could buy some .429 and use them for my .44 magnum losds too. 

The only thing that concerns me is all my loading data in my manuals call for .427 bullet size.  If im doing a larger bullet, won't that greatly affect the pressure?
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mehavey
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 06:16:55 pm »

Not if using cast.
1-2 thou of lead won't make a hill of bean difference in pressure,
but it can make ALL the difference in performance.
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Abilene
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 10:52:06 pm »

I doubt your factory load bullets are .426.  Probably .427 as that was the standard in the beginning and for many years.  Look on the box, as they often will tell you the bullet size.  As Pettifogger mentioned, the Ubertis (and many other modern guns) have standardized on .429 for ease of manufacturing.

Anyways, here is what you will likely find.  If you want to use .429 bullets, you will probably find that you need to limit your brass to Starline or Winchester, as those two have the thinnest necks.  Uberti chambers are tight.  .430 bullets get really iffy on chambering.  A lot of folks use .428, and I've even in the last couple years gone from .429 to .427 in my Ubertis, and for CAS they are just fine.  If you are trying for maximum accuracy, then the larger bullets may help.  Loading and shooting 'em are the only way to know for sure.  There are a lot of threads on this topic (what size bullets to use in Uberti 44-40) that you can peruse if you wish.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 12:43:38 am »

And in addition to the above. 

It twood seam the Manufacturers, both US and Italian, have settled on .429 as a standard for ALL .44s (cartridge guns).  So ... any new manufacture .44 "should" measure out to .429 and be most happy with .429 or .430 cast bullets.

Coffinmaker
[/quot

+1.  Don't overthink this.  Uberti has a chart listing its groove diameters so a .429 or .430 should work just fine.  I NEVER slug a bore unless there is a problem.  There are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation and 99.999999999999999999999% have never had their bores slugged and work just fine.  This is sort of like the guys that say the first thing you need to do with a new revolver, even before you have shot it, is to open the forcing cone to 11 degrees.  Ah, no.
Question for Coffinmaker and Pettifogger
First off thanks to the both of you for what you have posted here - big help! Your references made some of this work straightforward
So I am working on an 1860 army that was performing tired - (this is my sons gun n he is a bit of a wobbly shooter so HE got the blame for innaccuracy) first off it stripped the little gear teeth under the barl so the loading lever wouldnt function - that was beyond my ability to repair fix at the time so I built a Remy type lever and drilled the frame for a pivot pin - kept it all purty to the lines of the gun and it works ok, dont look out of place. Also did the forcing cone while I had it apart - Later It broke a handspring and he left it for me to work on - I follered Pettifoggers program - fixed the arbor fit with a button in the end but this old gun has done a lot and its all been full cylinder so I milled about 8thou off the frame where it pins together at the bottom (otherwise the cylinder gap had a distinct taper on it) had to make a new wedge and took a little out of the front of the wedge slot - it goes together nice now = 9 thou cylinder gap and straight - the bottoming arbor fix is good. Then I did the coil hand spring conversion- easy. I milled the muzzle back about 3/16th inch to get rid of a rust spot there and recrowned it. Test fire ? nothing changed - dang it all that work! Slugged the barl = .462 x .440, the .454 size slug is only got about half depth engagement,  measured cylinder = .451 (we bin using .454 ball) - I ordered a .462 mold and made a reamer that took the cylinder out to .4575 - was reluctant to go further till I shot it - someone had chamfered the cylinder and there is still about a millimeter of that left - the ball is squishing in not shaving - off a rest (after many attempts) its doing about 3inch group - it looks better because its right around the bullseye -- but to get that I had to go back to lube over the ball - I could not do any good at all with a greased wad over the powder - tried wool saddle serge and eggcarton soak lubed - both no go - could not find proper felt - I would like to try some 1/4 inch felt as that would cut the powder load a bit without messing round with fillers. Powder is 31grains black.(homemade powder its good and just a neat cylinder)  I have a .464 mold coming and considering taking the cylinder out some more .462? --- I am looking for more from this deal as he also has a Walker needs the same treatment. Whadda you guys think - is it unrealistic to expect this old gun to shoot a two inch group at 25 yards with a full load? - Where do I go next ? aint much left really.  did I miss somethin basic ?         
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 10:11:31 am »

Greyhawk,

WOW!!  Those are a bunch of changes.  Lots and lots of changes.  If all of your measured dimensions are correct ..... your chasing your tail.  With a 462 groove diameter you actually need to be shooting lead that measures 463.  If you try to re-cut your chambers to that dimension, your chamber walls may cease to exist.  For my preference, your barrel to cylinder gap is a mite too open. 

Not to belittle your efforts .... but were it I, I would already have gutted the gun for parts and started over with a new gun.  Before you put a lot more sand down a rat hole, consider scrapping the gun and beginning anew.

Coffinmaker
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greyhawk
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2017, 11:21:23 am »

Greyhawk,

WOW!!  Those are a bunch of changes.  Lots and lots of changes.  If all of your measured dimensions are correct ..... your chasing your tail.  With a 462 groove diameter you actually need to be shooting lead that measures 463.  If you try to re-cut your chambers to that dimension, your chamber walls may cease to exist.  For my preference, your barrel to cylinder gap is a mite too open. 

Not to belittle your efforts .... but were it I, I would already have gutted the gun for parts and started over with a new gun.  Before you put a lot more sand down a rat hole, consider scrapping the gun and beginning anew.

Coffinmaker
Thanks -
I appreciate your reply - yeah if I could walk out of Cabelas with a new one for three hundred bucks it would be already done - but the hassles we have to go through here with licencing , shipping, all the BS, a new 1860 Army would likely cost me a grand and be three to six months before we got it - on top of that I am kinda stubborn (more than just a little bit!) - if I scrap this gun it will be after I wrecked it trying - besides its a learning experience - challenging my machining ability but its all gone as planned so far - we also have a navy arms walker with same measurements - there is enough meat in that walker cylinder to go the extra. So lets consider the Army as a practice run. Cylinder gap at 9 thou too much? some fellers reckon 12thou is ok - to me 9thou looks plenty / excess I would aim for five when its done - I reckon this will tighten up some as the little button beds in - if no I can take a lick or two off there easy - I love the way this gun goes together now - I made the wedge without the central cutout for the screw and spring (laziness) and I reckon that is helping it to keep its shape. I have a .464 mold coming so I'll give this a crack - again with that Walker in mind - I reckon the cylinder will be ok - I am only going deep enough to get the ball in on a full load so most of the strenght is still intact - 3/8th inch deep is enough ..... we never shot conicals - no intention of doing it - round ball only. I'll keep ya posted - you may not think it but you have given me what I needed here - cylinder gap and reinforcement on ball size to barrel dimensions - that seven groove rifling is a pain to measure - I slugged that thing ten times over with a 490 ball swaged down to .464 and half an hour with a micrometer - still could be a thou either way -but not two thou out (I dont reckon) - so again thanks for takin the trouble.
Greyhawk   
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 03:16:39 pm »

Greyhawk,

There several other Gunplumbers who also lurk around here who will give you some different information, but it ALL works.  We tend to get to the same place just differently.

9 to 12 Thou barrel to cylinder gap allows too much fore and aft play of the cylinder.  Whit that much end play, you run into ignition problems as well as engagement of the hand to the star (ratchet).  When I build up Cap Guns I prefer a barrel to cylinder gap of no more than 5 Thou, +/- 1    The barrel should but up tight to the Arbor.  Your "button" probably won't "bed" as most of the stresses are pushing the barrel forward initially.  The rearward thrust takes place as the bullet transits the bore.

Speaking of the bore.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around your bore diameter.  I've never seen a bore from any manufacturer exceed .452 with the most common being 451.  For some reason, Chamber dimensions are always smaller than the bore.  I don't know what the Italians do it that way.  There is an outfit here reaming chambers to match bore (452 Chambers) to achieve "optimum Accuracy" which I find perplexing as all of the Cap Guns I have worked on were well accurate even with slightly undersize chambers.  I suppose if I were shooting Percussion Bullseye competitively I might do it but for most of what CAS is, it isn't necessary.

Good luck with your projects.  Hope you have a Harmonious outcome  Grin

Coffinmaker
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greyhawk
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 07:35:17 pm »

Greyhawk,

There several other Gunplumbers who also lurk around here who will give you some different information, but it ALL works.  We tend to get to the same place just differently.

9 to 12 Thou barrel to cylinder gap allows too much fore and aft play of the cylinder.  Whit that much end play, you run into ignition problems as well as engagement of the hand to the star (ratchet).  When I build up Cap Guns I prefer a barrel to cylinder gap of no more than 5 Thou, +/- 1    The barrel should but up tight to the Arbor.  Your "button" probably won't "bed" as most of the stresses are pushing the barrel forward initially.  The rearward thrust takes place as the bullet transits the bore.

Speaking of the bore.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around your bore diameter.  I've never seen a bore from any manufacturer exceed .452 with the most common being 451.  For some reason, Chamber dimensions are always smaller than the bore.  I don't know what the Italians do it that way.  There is an outfit here reaming chambers to match bore (452 Chambers) to achieve "optimum Accuracy" which I find perplexing as all of the Cap Guns I have worked on were well accurate even with slightly undersize chambers.  I suppose if I were shooting Percussion Bullseye competitively I might do it but for most of what CAS is, it isn't necessary.

Good luck with your projects.  Hope you have a Harmonious outcome  Grin

Coffinmaker

Coffinmaker
Yeah - apologies here
I messed this up with poor use of language ----bore is .440  - I used a 440 round ball - miked it first - just get a tiny bit of resistance as it enters the forcing cone and it glides down bore - pops out with just a touch of marks from the rifling .........Groove .....I am measuring .462 - only way I can get a slug to properly fill out - I use a 490 swaged down to .463 then push that through - doing that I get nice complete engraving right to the bottom of the grooves and it measures out .462 - the seven groove rifling makes that hard to measure properly - If I use a .461 ball I dont get complete fill out ...... cylinders before I took any metal out measured .4515 to 452 - we were using a .454 ball and it was going in a bit easy. (this gun may have been played with previous - the chambers had a nice chamfer)

The gun (1860 Army) is branded Euroarms of America - has the DGG mark (Armi San Paulo) and is an AN series = 1985 manufacture
 
The Walker we have is branded Connecticut Valley Arms - on top of the barrel - also a CVA logo mark on the frame above the trigger guard - there is another maker mark but I cant figure it out - it is a BA series = 1991 -- I swear from the measurements both these barrels could have come off the same rifling machine - as close to identical as you can get!  (cylinder dimensions too)

Still waiting on that .464 mold - when it comes - I will make another reamer and take both these cylinders to .463 .... there must be a few of these out there someplace ....Pedersoli makes the molds - 457,462,464 - that says I am not alone on this trail.

have never liked deep groove rifling - but its what we have to work with - having someplace to "park" the fouling sounded like a dumb idea to me - much better to sort your lube out and shoot clean -- similar logic to cylinder gap -- I looked at that more than once and "why do we need all that space there for powder/power to escape"- your 5thou gap sounds good to me.
Anyway thanks for the help and encouragement - this might seem like a waste of time to you but I will get it sorted and learn much in the process.  
Greyhawk  


* Army colt target 26-07-2017.jpeg (67.16 KB, 480x800 - viewed 23 times.)

* walker target 26-07-2017.jpeg (118.94 KB, 480x800 - viewed 26 times.)
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 12:54:08 pm »

Factory loaded .44-40 ammo does use .426 bullets.  For a number of years they used .425.  The reason?  .44-40 bores vary all over the spectrum.  I have measured antiques that ranged from .423 to .436.  Why do factory loaded .44-40s feel like .22s?  Because despite the numberous warnings people are going to shoot them out of original, black powder, Winchester 73s and other BP era guns.  For a number of years the factories use to load High Velocity .38-40 and .44-40 ammo with the box reading that they were for Model 92s only.  People didn't bother reading the warnings so the Hi V ammo was discontinued years ago.  I remember Hi V .44-40 ammo being available until the late 1960s.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601118641/remington-bullets-44-40-wcf-426-diameter-200-grain-jacketed-soft-point
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 11:04:03 pm »

I have 49 shells of fired Remington brass.  Would .429 brass be sufficient or shokd i do .428 or .427?
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Abilene
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2017, 12:19:56 am »

I expect that you will have problems with .429 in R-P brass, but you won't know unless you try.  If you have no bullets, some places will send you samples so you can find out.  If you only have 49 pieces of brass, I don't know that I would buy too many bullets based on that.  But if the smaller bullets shoot okay for you, it makes it easier to use a variety of brass.  Try some and see.
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2017, 09:13:36 am »

I expect that you will have problems with .429 in R-P brass, but you won't know unless you try.  If you have no bullets, some places will send you samples so you can find out.  If you only have 49 pieces of brass, I don't know that I would buy too many bullets based on that.  But if the smaller bullets shoot okay for you, it makes it easier to use a variety of brass.  Try some and see.

I went ahead and ordered RCBS reloading dies, trimmer, 100 rounds of Hunter Cast 200 gr .427 bullets and a case holder.   I'm kind of on a bare minimum budget this month but I want to go ahead and get started and get some new rounds made rather than buy factory ammo that feels like shooting a .22

I've got a little Unique powder, a little Clean Shot Powder (white can/black letters) and plenty of Trailboss.  I already have 49 R P .44-40 shells that I bought from the store as live shells.  Most of them already fired since having bought them.  Those that aren't I'm going to put several through the chronograph for later comparison.  (if anybody's wondering why I say 49 instead of 50, it's because one of the rounds ruptured upon firing it.  Had a crack breach in the middle of it after I fired it.)

If factory ammo is .427 diameter and Uberti and others make these guns able to shoot .429, how bad can .427 really be on the gun if the gun makers stamp .44-40 WCF on the barrel and expect you to NOT use reloaded ammo leaving you with what's in the store?
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greyhawk
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2017, 09:11:08 am »


Update for Coffinmaker
(my shoulda been scrap 1860 army!)
So .... I got my .464 Round ball mold - made another reamer and went ahead and reamed out our walker - now measures .463 cylinder, barrel is 440x462 near as I can measure - shot it this afternoon and its done a group just on three inch by 2 and a half inch - nothing spectacular but not so bad either at 25 yards - but there are no stray shots and my eyes were particularly crappy today - load was too complicated though!,  45 grains of homemade FFG black, a 3/8inch lube soaked felt wad (thats mainly to take up some powder space), 464 ball, thin lube cookie over the top, gonna try some more different loads tomorrow - also gonna go ahead and ream that Army cylinder to .463 (have had a practice run on a spare old cylinder it will be thin but we only going in ball depth). I feel like this is all gonna work  ...........     
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greyhawk
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 08:54:29 pm »

Update for Coffinmaker
(my shoulda been scrap 1860 army!)
So .... I got my .464 Round ball mold - made another reamer and went ahead and reamed out our walker - now measures .463 cylinder, barrel is 440x462 near as I can measure - shot it this afternoon and its done a group just on three inch by 2 and a half inch - nothing spectacular but not so bad either at 25 yards - but there are no stray shots and my eyes were particularly crappy today - load was too complicated though!,  45 grains of homemade FFG black, a 3/8inch lube soaked felt wad (thats mainly to take up some powder space), 464 ball, thin lube cookie over the top, gonna try some more different loads tomorrow - also gonna go ahead and ream that Army cylinder to .463 (have had a practice run on a spare old cylinder it will be thin but we only going in ball depth). I feel like this is all gonna work  ...........     
ok -- Coffinmaker - one down one to go - messing with loads this morning - this Walker gun dont like lots of lube over the powder (its winter and the lube cookies are stiff dont help) so 52 grains of homemade black, + a lube soaked egg carton wad, + .464 ball, +thin lube cookie over the ball (only about a 1/16th inch) --- target attached I hope - shot from clean oily bore no 1 is low and left,  tothers are strung above my poa aboot three inches vertical - thats me n sight alignment OR resting the barrel a little different after recoil - but side to side we down around two inch or better - have arrived at the point where this ole greyhaired dude can no longer blame the gun. Twould take a more acomplished pistolero than me to sort this any further ]


* walker target.jpeg (81.12 KB, 480x800 - viewed 36 times.)
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mehavey
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2017, 04:47:33 pm »

Doug.38,

0.429" w/ Rem brass is just fine (actually recommended) in the Uberti.

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greyhawk
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2017, 07:32:17 pm »

Doug 38 -- nice !! .......my eyes not good enough to do stuff like that anymore - but on a good day - offhand - can still pull em good enough they know I was there ... I have a uberti 66 rifle in 44/40 (among others) we were shooting a CBE 225 grain (all we could get at the time with the crimp groove in the correct place) I always shot as cast unless there was an issue with chambering (or a wonky mold) and we shoot black almost exclusively in our blackpowder style guns. Do you get any splits with Rem brass? - not the necks, these are case body split - have had more than a few over time but not getting them with Winchester cases? Blackpowder loads and the uberti chamber looks ok to me. just curious...... 
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greyhawk
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2017, 10:36:09 pm »

' nother one for Coffinmaker
This is the 1860 Army (shoulda been scrap)
Same measures .464 ball - cylinder reamed to .463 - barrel 440 x 462  -  34 grains of homemade FF + lubesoaked eggcarton wad + lubesoaked saddle serge wad + ball ---- NO LUBE OVER THE BALL! .......have come to the conclusion that once we get a good fitting ball to barrel - then the lube over top is a hindrance to accurracy - I was seeing odd little spots of lube cookie on the target at 25 yards - first shot went high (clean oily barl) tothers strung across target aboot 3inch wide but vertical is pretty good - I reckon this gun and load could do 2 inch if the operator was able ... anyway thanks to Coffinmaker (despite the fact he thought I was mad) and Pettifogger - we now got two sixshooters that are good enough to do somethin with. 


* 1860 army target.jpeg (67.29 KB, 480x800 - viewed 30 times.)
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2017, 04:35:25 pm »

Okay...reloaded and clocked for tge first time:

1) factory ammo (from ind. ammo maker called T's Guns & Ammo in Texas City):  200 gr. Bullet lead:  average 1230 ft per second

2). Handload:  200 gr hardcsst hunter bullet 7.5 gr of Unique: 1085 ft per second

3). Handload:  200 gr hardcast hunter bullett 8.0 gr of unique: 1181 ft per secomd

All bullets, including the factory i believe, were .427

Gun was a 20 inch Uberti winchester .44-40 1873 carbine.

Pretty impressive i thought.   That factory ammo was shocking.  It all felt shooting an AR and sounded like a .22.

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greyhawk
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2017, 06:35:06 pm »

Doug - the chrono can be fun .. I have managed to squash 40 grains of blackpowder into a 44/40 case and that got me 1355fps out of a uberti 66 rifle .. 39 gr = 1340 fps ...36.5 gr is our normal load and that goes 1288fps ... all those with 200grain cast .... 225 grain  cast dropped it to 1160fps ... wano PPP powder instead of Goex dropped to 1060fps --- if I just load up for fun I get aboot 30fps variation in a string of ten - If I get picky with the process I can get that down to about 15fps in the 44/40 - with a muzzle loader every dang thing you do makes a difference to velocity !
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