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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks (Moderators: Delmonico, Pitspitr)  |  Topic: Experimental Expansion Era Side Match 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Experimental Expansion Era Side Match  (Read 2235 times)
Niederlander
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« on: June 19, 2017, 07:53:55 am »


Gentlemen,  We're going to try an experimental side match for the Expansion Era this year.  At the suggestion of Drydock (and I love the idea), we're going to do a Mad Minute with full power ammunition.  On the one hundred yard long range steel target, you'll start with your rifle loaded, and you'll hit it as many times as possible in one minute, using any position you want.  Reloads are on the clock.  If we have a tie (which I think is doubtful), we'll have a shoot-off, same rules, except thirty seconds off-hand.

Remember, this is supposed to be with full power loads, and since the target is armor steel, jacketed bullets are fine.  (I would prefer no one uses armor piercing ammunition.)

Over/Under is twenty five hits.  I'll take the Under!

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RattlesnakeJack
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 10:36:39 am »

One of these years I'd love to convince my friend Rob Deans (known variously online as '"British Muzzleloaders" and "Rob Enfield") to come to a Muster.  Watch his numerous online videos (covering Baker, Enfield P'53, Snider-Enfield, Martini-Henry, Magazine Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield, SMLE and other rifles) ... including this one in which he achieves almost 30 rounds in a minute from an SMLE -

https://youtu.be/1DhjUrqH88s
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Niederlander
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2017, 12:08:29 pm »

Lots faster than I am!
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 12:12:24 pm »

Notice the technique, though?

(Work bolt with thumb and index finger, using middle finger on trigger ... gotta try that!)
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 12:24:06 pm »

I've seen that.  Never tried it yet, but I may soon.
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pony express
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 05:47:07 pm »

Hmmm... Don't think the Lebel would be best for that. Might have to practice up with the SMLE.
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RattlesnakeJack
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 06:27:49 pm »

That method works so well on the Lee-Metford/Lee-Enfield series of rifles because of the positioning of the bolt handle in relation to the trigger ...

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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 07:44:52 pm »

That method works so well on the Lee-Metford/Lee-Enfield series of rifles because of the positioning of the bolt handle in relation to the trigger ...



Should work with the Krag and '03 Springfield, also. But Lebel and any other Mannlicher type-not so well.
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Silver Creek Slim
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 11:07:15 pm »

We'll see how the P1917 Enfield does.

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 12:14:19 pm »

Although I agree that this particular rapid-fire method (i.e. working the bolt handle with thumb and forefinger while engaging the trigger with the middle finger) is also well-suited to Pattern 1914/Model 1917 Enfield rifles, it is not really practical for either the Krag or Springfield rifle.

The critical factor is not whether the bolt handle is turned down or otherwise relatively close to the trigger ... as I suspect some people may be thinking ... rather, it is the positioning of the bolt handle/knob noticeably behind the line of the trigger on the Enfield family of rifles.  Most other military rifles of the era have the bolt handle/knob directly above the trigger or even somewhat ahead of it, thus rendering this particular method of operating the action rapidly either impossible or significantly more difficult.  Note that the P14/M17 Enfield rifles (which are actually similar to Mauser-type actions in most respects, rather than the Lee action) have the bolt handle attached to the body of the bolt above the trigger, but the handle has been given a significant "jog" to the rear, specifically to place the knob/grip point behind the line of the trigger, thus rendering the relationship between the two essentially the same as on a Lee-Enfield rifle ...



In other words ... work the action of the M'17 in the above picture using this method, and your middle/trigger finger will be positioned pretty much where the peg is coming through the trigger guard, just as it would be on any Lee-Enfield rifle.  (However, without specifically checking the Era of Expansion guidelines, I wonder whether either the British Pattern 1914 or the US Model 1917 Enfield rifles would be "legal"?)
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 12:33:36 pm »

Having now checked the Guidelines with respect to the "legality" of British Pattern 1914 and US Model 1917 Enfield rifles, I see that they are allowed, despite the 1900-1916 time-frame (as I understand it) along with the general rule effectively disallowing uniforms, kit, etc. which are "WWI specific" so to speak.

Although the M'1917 is post-1916 and was neither adopted nor used until WWI - and the P'1914 would at very least have to be considered "WWI specific" in British service - I presume they are allowed to increase the class of permissible rifles, for greater flexibility.
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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 03:12:00 pm »

Thge SMLE and other Lee's are "cock-on-closing" and the enegy provided by the speed of closing assists in cocking the action. The P-14 & P-17 are "cock-on opening" and more effort is expended on lifting the bolt handle and can slow down the speed of manipulation. I have not tested my theory, but there it is.

I have fired the mauser quite quickly, offhand, but the required trick is to twist the rifle against the lifting of the bolt. The butt stays firmly stuck on the shoulder throughout.
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 04:47:01 pm »

Mostly I just read this forum, however I would like to suggest a CAVEAT!!

I don't know at what range you plan to shoot.  With jacketed full power ammunition against an armor steel target, bounce-back can arrive as far bask as the shooter(s) and spectator(s) with lethal velocity.  Insure your target is set with the bottom of the target angled back and away from the top of the target.  Thus set, physics will direct the bullet into the ground at the base of the target and not "bounce" it back at the firing line.

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pony express
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 09:24:29 pm »

Coffinmaker: Our armor targets at Pitspitr's farm are at 100, 200, 300 and 400. The shooting point is somewhat higher elevation than the closer targets, probably at least 25-30 feet, no "returned fire" had been noted from them.

Sir Charles: The P-14/17 rifles when in as issued condition are also "cock on closing". Sometimes sporterised rifles are converted to cock on opening.
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 07:01:10 am »

The M-1917 is allowed because it is essentially a p-1914 chambered for .30-06. 
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 07:33:25 am »

The M-1917 is allowed because it is essentially a p-1914 chambered for .30-06. 

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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 09:08:58 am »


"Sir Charles: The P-14/17 rifles when in as issued condition are also "cock on closing". Sometimes sporterised rifles are converted to cock on opening."

Thanks for the info. I have never owned one, so it's my ignorance in thinking it was a faithful copy of the Mauser. However, I have never heard of the rapidfire deal on anything but a Lee Enfield. Canadians in WW II revived the technique for FIBUA (urban warfare). They preferred STENs, and lots of grenades for room clearing!
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2017, 05:17:21 pm »


Thanks for the info. I have never owned one, so it's my ignorance in thinking it was a faithful copy of the Mauser.

back when they were commonly used for sporterising, the cock on closing feature was the primary unpopular feature of the 1917, aside from the rear sight "ears"
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2017, 06:17:44 am »

Mostly I just read this forum, however I would like to suggest a CAVEAT!!

I don't know at what range you plan to shoot.  With jacketed full power ammunition against an armor steel target, bounce-back can arrive as far bask as the shooter(s) and spectator(s) with lethal velocity.  Insure your target is set with the bottom of the target angled back and away from the top of the target.  Thus set, physics will direct the bullet into the ground at the base of the target and not "bounce" it back at the firing line.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2017, 07:04:32 am »

Darn it, Pitspitr! Here I was already feeling bad about missing the Muster this year, and you go and make it worse with the picture of the long range setutup.  Grin
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Delmonico
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2017, 10:42:21 am »

Darn it, Pitspitr! Here I was already feeling bad about missing the Muster this year, and you go and make it worse with the picture of the long range setutup.  Grin


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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 10:06:25 pm »

I fired my Krag with my fingers on the bolt, ring finger on the trigger.  Worked great!
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Niederlander
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2017, 10:29:07 pm »

That side match was awfully entertaining...........
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2017, 11:50:05 pm »

Any video?   Grin
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2017, 06:26:53 am »

I don't think there's video, but remember the problem you with the safety on the Long Lee last year?  Let's just say that same problem bit Yours Truly hard!
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks (Moderators: Delmonico, Pitspitr)  |  Topic: Experimental Expansion Era Side Match « previous next »
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