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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: reloading .38 special for open tops. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: reloading .38 special for open tops.  (Read 2843 times)
eljay
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« on: June 18, 2017, 02:16:00 am »


hi all as the subject says, I need some info on reloading .38 special using Australian made, ADI AS30N powder. the powder equivalent chart shows this as being close to red dot and blue dot. I will be loading for either a new Richards type 11 conversion, or a used open top, I have had the new one on order since before Christmas, you blokes don't know how lucky you are compared to OZ, apart from our moronic laws, we are the poor relation when it comes to getting gear from uberti/beretta, I digress. I am presently loading for my S&W model 10 with 3.5 grains of as 30, behind a 150 grn swc, this shoots fine, and would appear to be within parameters for "standard" loads as regards pressures. when I run out of these projectiles, I have a supply of 135grn rn to use, hopefully with the same powder charge. question is, are these loads to heavy, in your opinion, for an open top revolver? I also have trailboss, but having read about the "spike" as opposed to the max pressure, I am in a quandary over using TB in an open top. so do you have a safe load for TB with a 135 grn projectile? I will need a new powder thrower for the TB, as my 2 ancient Bair 316 throwers, hate TB. all help gratefully accepted. by the way, I fully understand the short arbor problem with uberti's, and will address that before I shoot this revolver.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 10:41:21 am »

ElJay,

Unfortunately, I'm of no help What-So-Ever.  I'm not at all familiar with your listed powder and I also don't shoot smokeless.  Therefore,
this post contains no useful information as pertains to your query and should be ignored. 

I do however, have a very simple formula for success while remaining within pressure levels for Open Top design Colt Pattern Pistols.
Simply load 2f APP to the base of what ever projectile you wish to shoot.  Any projectile.  Doesn't matter.  The load recipe is exactly the same.  Fill case to match base of bullet.  Stuff bullet in case.  Crimp.  Repeat as required.

The alternative is to load 2f BP to allow approximately 1/16 inch compression of the powder.  This recipe is also applicable to any projectile you wish to launch.  Doesn't matter.  Recipe is exactly the same.  Same procedure.  Repeat as necessary.

Coffinmaker
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2017, 01:13:20 pm »

ElJay,

Unfortunately, I'm of no help What-So-Ever.  I'm not at all familiar with your listed powder and I also don't shoot smokeless.  Therefore,
this post contains no useful information as pertains to your query and should be ignored.

Coffinmaker
Coffinmaker, as you indicated in your post, you aren't familiar with the powder in question and never answered anything 'eljay' asked for as far as information, hence, all you posted should be ignored. I don't know why you wasted your time even responding in any form. You could have been a little more friendly to our fellow shooter 'down under'. Just my opini9on.

eljay: I've never heard of the powder in question or even the maker to be honest. I did look up your ADI AS30N powder and did some reading about it and its maker. ADI I found dates back to the late 1880's as a maker of powder for Aussie needs and is a major supplier to the military in your country. That gives it credence such as IMR and Hodgen companies in the USA. Anyway I found a number of sites giving powder charges for the 38 Special, but the ones I did see didn't give specific powder charges for AS30N using 135 or even 150 grain lead bullets. Not that they aren't somewhere. You'll have to check around. As you indicated, it is similar to Alliant Red Dot, which I did once upon a time use for 44 Special 200 grain bullets in my Open Top and Richards II Uberti revolvers. Kept the fps and pressure's down to below the 850 fps level, but never had any problem. I've since regulated my 'open top' style Colts to using 44 Colt brass and black powder, but wouldn't have a problem using Red Dot or several other powders I tired with the Colts such as Trail Boss and Win 231. Ya just got to watch what you use for grains, keeping your fps and pressure levels in an area that will not beat your guns to death. You mentioned Blue Dot as comparable to your AS30N. There is a wide gap in the burning rate between the two, Blue Dot being slower burning than Red Dot. Blue Dot is used for more magnum pressure loads in such calibers such as the .357 and 44 Mag. Have used it in both calibers, mostly using jacketed hollow points with good results, but I'd never use it in the open top colt designs. I did find a 2013 ADI powder guide online, but for your two weight lead bullets you mentioned it just gave loading guides using AP50N and AP70N, both fast burning pistol powders. I assume AS30N may be a tad faster. Anyway, there should be some information online for your AS30N with a little searching, I just didn't take the time. That's about all I can say, sorry I don't have the exact info you request.

"Ain't" trying to step on ya Coffinmaker, yer a repository of good information and expierence, not trying to toss ya under the bus, just 'needlin' ya some! Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 04:59:51 pm »

Well Gosh Choker,

Looks like yer Caffeine Level was a mite low.  I was just havein a bit of fun which, had yer Caffeine low light not been glowing brightly, you might have noticed.

I noticed as well, your rambling response went completely around his question as well.  Before you poke yer finger in someone's eye, might want review your "righteous" level first.  Not to be throwin ya under the bus so to speak   Grin

Coffinmaker

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Crow Choker
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 07:26:36 pm »

I know, I tried to give some level of info even though I wasn't giving the specific answer eljay was asking for. Not only not ever seeing any powder loadings for the powder in question, I had never even heard of the powder brand, but I did do a little fast research and tried to steer him to where he could get it and a few tips. Not to be self righteous or patting myself on the back, I thought my response was better than yers (not attempting to toss ya under the bus please understand). Ouch, watch those rear duals, they can be nasty! Grin
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eljay
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 10:14:56 pm »

that's great, if nothing else I've caused division in the ranks LOL. I will rephrase my query, from what data I have found, my 3.5 grain load is within parameters for "standard" .38 special loads (this I believe to be under 17000 cup) so the question is: will the uberti open top design, safely digest a steady diet of "standard" loads? I envisage shooting 1000-1500 rounds per year. or alternately, what is a good, proven load of trailboss with a 135 grain RN pill? thanks for the replies so far, its been fun !!
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 01:00:38 am »

Not to fear my Good ElJay -

We here love a good rousing arguement opinionated discussion. And some of us get bored and offer anything we can that may not have anything to do with the original topic. Like Yours Truly.

As long as any eyes which were gouged out are handed back , with a mumbled appology, we usually make up and slouch home.

Heavens' Crow and Coffin are being downright congenial today, I don;t even see any signs of spittle and venom or blood!

Regarding your original question, allow me to begin with the "short answer" and then progress to my typical "long-winded speechifying answer".

Short Answer:
I would offer my opinion that your load (which exceeds max for .38 spcl)  is "too warm" for your open top.

Long Answer:
Here is some dope straight from the manufacturor,

I included .38 Long Colt as representative of loads suitable for an open-top, notice the much lower loads :
-------------
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/single_action_pistol.asp?Calibre=38+Long+Colt
Bullet       Powder    Bullet Diam. C.O.L    Starting Loads       Maximum Loads
Grs.                                           Grs    (fps)    Pres            Grs.    (fps)    Pressure
125 GR. LRN    AS30N    .358"    1.400"    2.0    631    -            2.5    765
150 GR. LRN    AS30N    .358"    1.390"    2.0    624    -            2.6    744    -


http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/single_action_pistol.asp?Calibre=38+Special

Bullet          Powder       Diam.    C.O.L    Starting Loads       Maximum Loads
Grs.                                                Grs    (fps)    Pres       Grs.    (fps)    Pressure

135 GR. CAST LRNFP    AS30N       .358"    1.418"    2.6    767    11400 cup    3.3    910    16200 cup

158 GR. CAST LSWC    Trail Boss            .358"    1.475"    2.7    661    11400 psi    4.2    804    13700 psi
158 GR. CAST LSWC    AS30N       .358"    1.475"    2.8    812    12900 cup    3.1    871    15100 cup
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that your load exceeds the recommended max.

Since the recommended max load for .38 special is 3.1 gr with a 158 grain bullet, and
the .38 Long Colt load is a mere 2.6 gr, I would suggest going lower with your open top than your Model 10.
Heck, I would go so far as to recommend dropping the charge for your Model 10!

Now bear in mind I am a conservative sort, your milage may vary and blah blah blah...
but since no one is out to kill bears with a .38 I don't see much downside .
 
hope this helps

Crow, Coffin.  Give back any bits you tore off each other  (if any) and pray continue  Roll Eyes

yhs
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eljay
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 06:06:00 am »

thanks prof for your erudite discourse. I will take your advice and drop my model 10 load to 3 grains of AS30 and when I get an open top, I will start with 4 grains of trail boss. we will leave the two children to bicker, while the grown ups have a conversation eh?  Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 12:20:05 pm »

Well ...... Humpff and all that   Cheesy

The Perfesser be correct, No Bones sticking out, No Blood .... No harm No Foul.  I marked the package to Choker "Tick OK" tee hee hee.

From a mechanical standpoint, an Open Top will stand some abuse.  Not a lot.  Chambered for 38 Spl, the cylinder walls are quite heavy and I would not anticipate any cylinder problems.  The Guns are proofed for 45 Colt with 250Gr bullets which provide considerable safety margin for 38 Special.  However, the gun is held together with a wedge through the arbor, which is held in the frame by screw threads.  The original design of the gun was for BP.  Smokeless pressure spikes are entirely different.  Nastier if you will.  I would actually be more concerned about the stresses placed on the cartridges than the gun.

After a thorough review (I really can read) of the information provided by our own Perfesser Marvelious, the submitted pressure levels are excessive for 38 Special.  I'd be well concerned for incipent case head separation and early case failure.  I would also be a champion of reducing the load.  A Mite Stout as it twer.

Returning to the term "Standard."  When you actually load at "standard" levels, the Open Top will digest all the "standard" 38 Special you want to feed it.  However, you did reverence correcting the Barrel/Arbor fit.  Be sure to do that.  Other wise, the gun will beat itself to death no matter what you feed it.  My own Open Top Main Match guns which are 45, 44 and 38 on the same frame, have been in service for 15 years, as much as 4 matches a month so lemme see, 4 matches a month at 60 rounds per match would equal somewhere around 43,000 rounds plus some practice, so call it 60,000 rounds between 2 guns is 30,000 rounds per gun.  Wow, first time I ever did the math!  I don't shoot quite that much anymore (I've gotten ....... older).  I seriously doubt you can hurt your Open Top with "standard" ammo.

Coffinmaker

PS:  KUDOS to the good Professor whom possess much better Google Foo than I do.  If it's Mattel .. It's Swell!!
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Abilene
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 12:42:55 pm »

Hodgdon lists a .38 Spcl load for a 140gr bullet.  3.0 (697 fps, 11,200 PSI) to 3.7gr. (806 fps, 13,400 PSI)

They also have a "formula" for loading Trailboss with any bullet in any cartridge:
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 11:28:31 pm »

Ah Yes, the Good Professor to the Rescue.. Grin I saw the loads for the 38 Long Colt in ADI's load chart, but that was one dated 2013. I didn't search long and hard enough to find a current one, but I'm sure it is there some where in cyber land-along with published loads for all of their powders and assorted bullets. Ejay'-the Professor and Coffinmaker are right in their posts about keeping the loads on the milder side and IMO that would be in the maybe 700-850 fps range, but it all depends on that AS30N powder your wanting to use, its burn rate, pressure peaks, etc. As CM noted, the Uberti Colts can take a lot of shootin as long as the fodder ya stick em is agreeable.

 Good advice to start low and build from there, just keeping the desire not to make a magnum out of the cartridge. Have known and heard of shooters/loaders doing that. Especially bad on a Colt open top frame design. As I previously posted I used to load 44 Spec smokeless in my two styles, wanted more umpth' out of it, so I bought a Ruger Super Blackhawk (44 Mag) that could handle the extra umpth'. Enjoy now just loading 44 Colt with 25.0 FF blk and 200 grain MavDutchmans. I did get a Richard Mason Colt in 38 Spec a little over a year ago, but so far have just loaded black and Snakebite bullets in it--good shooter. Good of ya Professor to post the loadings, I don't have the computer skill to do all that, been tryin my best  to stay out of Coffinmakers way when that dang bus comes rollin along so I don't get sucked under it. Grin

Abilene's post is a goody, I assume he is referring to TrailBoss with the load he posted. I've always had good luck with TB, not my favorite SL powder, but have used a lot of it with good success, even in the Colt open top frame designs. CM is right on about the arbor/frame fix, will stand up to a lot more than without it. See Coffinmaker, I can be nice to ya--always have. Shocked Grin I just posted again so you'd have something to read to prevent any boredom ya might be haven! Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 10:34:05 am »

Hey Crow Choker  Cheesy

Thanks a bunch.  A little slow this AM, good reading is priceless!!

Good Stuff too.  Let us continue to Persevere (Stolen famous movie line)  Roll Eyes

Coffinmaker
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Scattered Thumbs
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 03:17:40 pm »

Hey Crow Choker  Cheesy

Thanks a bunch.  A little slow this AM, good reading is priceless!!

Good Stuff too.  Let us continue to Persevere (Stolen famous movie line)  Roll Eyes

Coffinmaker

Next time steal it right.  Grin You still have to endeavour to persevere.  Roll Eyes

At eljay. If your loads are in the range of standard factory loads you will be alright. Just avoid any +P loading.

And in a way I concur with the coffin dude. You can't go wrong if you load with FFG blackpowder, some 17 grains of it. I met some blackpowder shooters from OZ  in 2006, so I assume (hopefully) you can still buy the stuff there.

Just my 2 cents.
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Abilene
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 06:43:08 pm »

Next time steal it right.  Grin You still have to endeavour to persevere.  Roll Eyes ...

Well now Coffinmaker shoots BP subs, so maybe he uses quotation subs as well.  You know, close but not quite the same  Grin
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Poodleshooter
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 04:25:59 pm »

Not sure anyone has mentioned it, but AS30n from ADI is Hodgdon Clays. Hodgdon buys it from ADI and rebrands it. It's a very fast powder, with very narrow charge ranges between start and max loads in small pistols. Its chief virtue is a clean burn even at low pressures.
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Cholla Hill Tirador
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 04:48:15 am »

  Well now here's something interesting:
 
 

 As you can see, you may use readily available data for Hodgdon Clay or Alliant Red Dot. What could be more simple?
 
 CHT
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Bunk Stagnerg
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 11:45:22 am »

after reading all this personally I will stick to FFg or FFFg case full in .45 Colt, .45 Cowboy Special, .45-70 and 12 gauge shotgun.
Makes keeping track of power on hand easy.
CM at your urging I may try some APP just for fun. Is "Jim Shockeys Gold" good in the .45 CAS case with a 175 grain BL bullet? Understand the lube is not necessary, but the recoil is easy on my ageing wrists.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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Abilene
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 06:06:52 pm »

Oh No, Bunk!  APP is for transitioning from smokeless to BP!   Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 08:06:16 pm »

Hey Bunk!!

Jim Shockeys Gold "IS" APP.  Just a different label and I think a bit higher price.  Anyway, I load the C45S case with APP to the base of a 160Gr bullet for my Trappers (they won't hold 10 full length 45 Colt) and for my Snubbies with conversion cylinders.   I wouldn't think there would be ANY problem with a 175Gr bullet.  Lube is NOT necessary.  However, if you have a ton of smokeless crayon lubed bullets, not a problem either.  I don't use any lube with my Cap Guns either.

For full length 45 Colt cases or 44-40-45 cases, I shoot the same load as the C45S I just make up the difference in volume with Cream-0-Wheat.

Pay no attention to Abilene.  Running head first into a hitch rail last year has left him impaired    Roll Eyes Grin
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pistol1911
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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2017, 05:38:31 pm »

Standard target load 2.7 grains of Bullseye 148 grain wadcutter. iF you can getthe powder.
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Cholla Hill Tirador
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2017, 08:47:32 am »

Образчик установки отпугивателей на склад со стеллажами Предположим, имеется склад площадью некоторое количество сот квадратных метров перерванный с поддержкой стеллажей с продуктами на секции маленького размера. Устанавливаем отпугиватели, как показано на схеме. Методика размещения отпугивателей на базе Образчик установки отпугивателей Нам пригодятся некоторое количество отпугивателей грызунов Торнадо-200. У их маленькая емкость, и они рассчитаны на раскрытую площадь по 200 кв.  Экоснайпер  Москва   при попадании внутрь устройства проистекает ликвидирование насекомых.   м. 
 
Таковым образом, мы покроем все пристраивание ультразвуком, чтоб грызунам некуда было подеваться. Ежели пристраивание существенное сообразно размеру, 1000-2000 кв/м, то заместо Торнадо-200, разрешено применять приборы посильнее. К примеру, некоторое количество отпугивателей Торнадо-300 либо даже Торнадо-400, в каждом конкретном случае емкость устройств подбирается персонально.  Все модели сводит высочайшее свойство, отличная незыблемость и долгий срок неотказной службы  http://www.krot-am.net/professionalnyjj-ultrazvukovojj-otpugivatel-gryzunov-i-krotov-grad-a-550uz.php - ультразвуковой отпугиватель град . Грустно, когда в новейшей машине крысы перегрызают проводку, а это приключается не этак изредка. Для борьбы с таковой напастью имеется особые ультразвуковые отпугиватели, какие инсталлируются конкретно под капот кара.  Они включаются к клеммам аккума с поддержкой зажимов крокодил на время, когда вы не используете машинкой(на стоянке либо в гараже). Посреди их имеется Торнадо 200-12К, Тайфун ЛС-700 и Цунами-4.

  What'd he say?
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wildman1
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2017, 10:24:16 am »

Yep I think he is right on the money.
wM1
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2017, 12:48:35 pm »

russian spammers/hackers are out in force again.

He is discussing  ultrasound mouse repellers for moscow warehouses.

I think light loads in a .38 opentop would be far more entertaining!

yhs
prof marvel
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