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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  1860 Henry (Moderators: Flint, Major 2)  |  Topic: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List...  (Read 6709 times)
Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2017, 12:06:07 pm »

I took my musket somewhat apart today. All the recvr screws came out easily. Removed the sideplates and buttstock. I found one piece of brass inside the action but otherwise it was very clean. I polished up the lifter with oil and 400 grit paper, installed lifter and lever springs from the Smith Shop. Installed a light duty hammer spring but it wouldn't work due to it being narrower than a cutout milled into the lower tang. I went ahead and put several pieces of belt leather under it and it was good. Actually the original spring looked alot like it except for the cut out in the center of the light spring. The problem in the mag tube was that the follower was hanging up. Depending on how you pushed it in, upward or downward as it was depressed it would lock up. In attempting to loosen the screw on the end of the mag tube I rapped my screwdriver towards the receiver to break it loose a few times. I couldn't see where anything moved but now it works. The screw never came unscrewed, Louigi the Uberti gorilla strikes again. I'm guessing that the tube  wasn't seated all the way into the recvr and the back end of the follower was hanging up on it. I just fired 3 rds from the magazine with no issues. Here are some photos but the protective film is still on it. I lightly hit it with some Mothers after messing with it and now I can't get a decent pix. It's a shiny rifle for sure. I will try photos outside later.
What kind of sling would be appropriate for this 1866? Leather or cloth?
MT- update on the bayonet. I've managed to get the trapdoor bayonet to go on the musket by stretching and filing on the socket and bridge.  Now I need to tinker with the bayonet lock to get clearance for the front sight. It goes right on if the screw is removed from the lock.


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mtmarfield
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2017, 07:22:09 pm »

   Greetings!

   It looks very nice! My FFL has sent his info to Taylor's, and I'm in 'waiting mode',
which means that I should see it next week...!

                 M.T.Marfield
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2017, 11:06:06 pm »


Balto,
When I enlarge you photo (gets fuzzy) it would appear Uberti is using the same Sling Mount in the Butt Stock as they use for the 1960 Henry.  Were it mine, Leather would be the only sling material.  Were it mine, I'd start with a leather 1860 Henry Sling.  Your call.
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mtmarfield
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2017, 06:43:38 pm »

   Greetings, All!

   Well, I picked up my 1866 Musket! Lovely, dark wood; hangs like a, well, Musket from my shoulder,
which is perfect for me! Along with it came a 'closeout' special: an 1871 Open-Top, 5-1/2" bbl., chambered
for the .44S&W Spl ( .44 S&W Russian ). The price was right, so I had to do it! A spare cylinder cut for
the .44WCF would be nice, but might be pushing it...
   Now all that I need is a slightly better eyeglass prescription! Photos to come!

                     MTMarfield
   
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2017, 08:14:06 pm »

Glad to hear that you've gotten your musket too. I replaced those 3 springs and my new gate is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I've only shot 3 rds at a time so as not to break the original gate. The sights were right on with my load. In fact I could see them better than my friends 1866 musket. His is the older model Uberti. That was actually one of my major concerns, that the sights were going to be too small and be a problem. We're shooting Wild Bunch Saturday (1911,1912 and my Marlin) so I'll have to wait another month before I can try it in a match. It'll give me time to break it in.
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mtmarfield
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2017, 08:54:05 pm »

   Greetings!

   I don't currently have a shop to work in, so I'll likely have a proper qualified 'smith do the work.
I'd like to find one that is local, and I would be willing to drive south to Denver / environs, or north.
I might put a few rounds through it first, but I'd really like to find a CAS Gunsmith. This thing is
gorgeous, and I want to treat it right!

                 MTMarfield
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2017, 10:29:00 am »

Man, those 1866 muskets are almost as sexy as the 1860 Henry!
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators
Coffinmaker
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2017, 12:09:14 pm »


I've often wondered .....  If one were to have sufficient disposable income ....... to wander around South American gun shops in search of a few of those last production 1866s Winchester made in Central Fire, strictly for export.  Could be kinda fun.  With current garbage import restrictions, re-import could be problematic (antiques??) but finding a shooter or two would be way cool.
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Yeso Bill
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2017, 12:56:04 pm »

I saw a collection one time way back in the 1970s in Las Cruces, N.M.  I recall the guy had several hundred Winchesters and they had mostly all came out of Mexico and they were all restored.  I don't remember seeing any Henrys or 66s but I was too awed to ask.   
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Abilene
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2017, 01:52:35 pm »

I've often wondered .....  If one were to have sufficient disposable income ....... to wander around South American gun shops in search of a few of those last production 1866s Winchester made in Central Fire, strictly for export.  Could be kinda fun.  With current garbage import restrictions, re-import could be problematic (antiques??) but finding a shooter or two would be way cool.

At the last Shot Show a South American was talking to me (I honestly don't remember which country) and showing me pics of his guns on his phone.  His English was poor but he had a '66 and he said they were pretty common, and cost some ridiculously low price.  I'm guessing the paperwork must be horrific or something or else collectors would have scooped them up.
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Tuolumne Lawman
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2017, 10:38:00 am »

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I was an FFL and did several gunshows a month.  At one southern California show (Del Mar, I think) I was offered an 1866 carbine in centerfire, with a box of ammo for $400!  It was before I started CAS, so I passed.  There was a SASS member named Charley Gullet who wrote a couple books.  I found him a rusted 1866 that he saved the receiver and lifter from, and built a centerfire 1866 out of it.  If I remember correctly, he used cut down 41 magnum brass and a heeled bullet.
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TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators
Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2017, 08:34:32 pm »

  Greetings!

   I don't currently have a shop to work in, so I'll likely have a proper qualified 'smith do the work.
I'd like to find one that is local, and I would be willing to drive south to Denver / environs, or north.
I might put a few rounds through it first, but I'd really like to find a CAS Gunsmith. This thing is
gorgeous, and I want to treat it right!

                 MTMarfield
That's what kitchen tables are also made for. Just wait till the 'boss' is out.
I swapped out the Uberti gate with a TOTW improved gate today. The only difference is the tab on the new one is a hair thicker. I will do a jb weld reinforce on it just to have a spare.
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mtmarfield
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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2017, 01:41:56 am »

   Greetings!

   OK...!

                 MTMarfield
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2017, 12:21:34 pm »

I shot 50 rds this morning out of my Uberti 66 musket. The sights are dead on with my handloads. I shot at a variety of big and small targets on my range with only a couple of misses but had 2 light hammer strike misfires which went off the second time they were hit. I guess I have to tinker with my mainspring some before I use this in a match. Loading was stiff but is loosening up. The action is a little sticky even with the aftermarket wire springs. Just a matter of breaking it in. I'll shoot 50 more tomorrow. Overcast skies so here's some photos.


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Coal Creek Griff
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« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2017, 02:31:21 pm »

That's excellent. Your sling looks great, too.

CC Griff
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2017, 10:43:50 pm »

Balto E,

Lighter Lever Side Springs and lighter Main Spring is into "domino effect."  If you have some light hammer strikes, FIRST look at your firing pin and firing pin return spring. 
If the business end of your firing pin looks like the leading edge of a basket ball, it will need re-profiled to a pointier profile.
The OEM Firing Pin return spring is too heavy/too long.  Shorten it to 11/16ths or replace it with a reduced return spring.
The Firing Pin Extension rod should slide smoothly in and out of the bore in the receiver.  If it doesn't...polish it.  It (extension) must also slide smoothly in and out of the Breach Block.  Often a burr at the end of the Extension.  Often the inside of the Breach Block is a little rough.  Polish em.
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2017, 09:06:05 am »

While I was watching tv last night I was levering my 66 to help break it in and wound up replacing the original mainspring but I found that the firing pin is very stiff to move when the lever is up where the hammer would naturally hit it but when the lever is lowered slightly loosens up. If  you thumb cock the hammer after firing and then slowly lower the lever the extension will pop out 1/8 inch. Do I have something in a bind? Is this correct? I also found a weirdness where the sear and hammer engage. If I hold the trigger and hammer as they slowly engage can feel an extra 'edge' right before it engages the full cock notch. I don't fell anything when I run at normal speed or when I pull the trigger. When I get it apart I'll post some photos.
Updats---Put 30 more rds through it today after reshaping the trigger sear angle, the angles were cut weird making it feel like two different engagements on the full cock notch. Only 2 my fault misses but no light hits with the original mainspring installed. Now I need to crank out some more.44-40s. I'm going to like this rifle. I need to get my pact timer repaired so I can do a head to head shootout comparison between the 66 and my Marlin and see which one is faster.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2017, 04:22:09 pm »

Ed,

YES!!  You have a bit of a problem in your ignition system.  The coiler is obviously out of phase with the positractor.!!  Maybe.  FIRST.  BEFORE you attack anything else, reduce the firing pin return spring and check/reprofile the nose of the Firing Pin.  Reassemble and and test.  SECOND.  With the lever tight against the lower tang, the Firing Pin and Extension should slide in and out smoothly and easily.  The binding you have found is contributing to your fail to fire.  BEFORE lots of excitement and AFTER you have fix'd the Firing Pin and Spring, chamber a FIRED RESIZED or VIRGIN case and test the Firing Pin/Extension Rod for freedom of movement.  You should be able to push the Extension Rod into it's bore easily with light pressure and it should come right back out EASILY.

If you get some light binding with NO CASE chambered, but everything frees up and runs smooth and light WITH a case chambered .... no real problem unless the bolt drop is really excessive.  You should not get a lot of vertical movement of the bolt on the end of the Extension Rod.

Now ...... Take the Hammer out of the gun.  Inspect the sides of the hammer for drag marks.  If you have drag marks on the hammer, you have burrs in the wrist.  Stone those (Burrs) lightly and if you have a VERY FLAT surface, polish the sides of the Hammer.

If you are running wire Lever Side Springs and a reduced Main Spring, there is no "breaking in" to do.  At most, pull the carrier block out and on a VERY FLAT surface with 1000 or 2000 grit Wet/Dry polish all four sides of the Carrier Block.  Lightly oil everything.  Should run lightly enough you'll need a lever wrap to keep from hurting your fingers cycling the lever. 
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2017, 04:45:14 pm »

Coffinmaker, the left cases are from today's 30 with the original mainspring while the right cases are from the other day's 50 with the reduced power spring.?? Look alike to me.
I resized a case and chambered it as requested--- no bindind on the firing pin!!! The extension moves easily with finger pressure. The hammer rebounds. Amazing. Pardon me lack of unnerstannin this mystery but wth? Is my rifle posessed with some old Italian spirit?
I assume that the chambered case is supporting the firing pin and extension so nothing is binding. But that doesn't explain my earlier light hits? I looked at the hammer when I had it out earlier and didn't notice any real marks. More shooting required.


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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2017, 11:23:16 am »

OK Ed,
We are in hot pursuit!!  Next step is to check Head Space.  I use an automotive type blade feeler gage that will fit between the mortice wall and the extractor.  Measuring between the Case Head and the Breach Face of the Breach Block (Bolt).  Optimum Head Space is .004 +/- .001   Some guns will run with far more Head Space, clear out to .010 but .010 is on the ragged edge.  Should also check for firing pin protrusion.  When pressed into the Bolt with the spring installed, the firing pin should protrude .045 - .050 past the Bolt face.

Then we consider the possibility of Primers not fully seated in the pocket.  And Then .......

The wrong Primers.  What brand primers are you using??  When a toggle link rifle is built to run light and fast, you may well have to consider it a "Federal Primer" only rifle.  Remington and CCI are well too hard for a reduced Main Spring.  Federal and Winchester are the recommended primers and if a really light Main Spring, Federal only.

The indentations on your pictured primers appear to be same same.  That would also indicate to me your Main Spring is sufficient.  The last thing to look at is YOU.  When you had the Fail to Fire, were you running the rifle fast and perhaps got out of time with the rifle??  I have been shooting Brass rifles forever (no lever safety) and still occasionally get a little out of time and eject a live round that has just a tiny little dent in the primer.  Not enough for ignition.  Very annoying.  I shouldn't actually admit to that.  However ............
And I do wonder about your Head Space.

PS:  Forgot.  It has been very very common for Large Bore Uberti toggle rifles to have excess head Space.
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2017, 12:37:18 pm »

Coffinmaker, I broke out my feeler gauges and calipers and the bolt is OVER camming slightly not the opposite. I cannot get anything between the chambered brass and the bolt. With an mty chamber, on the rt side of the extractor it measures  .057 while on the left side it is .054, my starline brass measures a .059 - .060 rim thickness. The bolt closes on a chambered round with just the slightest amount of resistance. I had a more severe condition on my NWMP 1876 carbine if you remember the old thread. The 76 was over camming to the point that it wouldn't even chamber certain brands of trimmed .45-70 brass with the correct rim thickness. My shooting buddy removed some metal from the links on only one side which solved the problem. The other side was fine. The golden primers in my .44-40 are winchester but I usually use cci. I'm going to leave the original mainspring in the rifle as it's not much of a felt difference between it and the aftermarket light wt spring. The lt weight spring didn't really fit the rifle as there is a milled recess in the lower tang and the narrow profile caused it to go into the recess which reduced the spring to the point that it lost most of it's power. I had to put some pieces of belt leather in the recess to get it to work at all. This could have been where the light strikes came from. Your interest and imput is mucho appreciated.
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2017, 01:50:32 pm »

Just put 50 more through the musket with no issues except a couple of my fault misses. No misfires or feeding problems. I will shoot 50 more this week in preparation of our club's match next Saturday but it looks like Colour Sgt Bourne will use it next week. I would think that the slight amount of over camming is preferential to excessive headspace. Would also think that things will loosen up the more that it's shot.
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Fox Creek Kid
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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2017, 11:25:02 am »

I've often wondered .....  If one were to have sufficient disposable income ....... to wander around South American gun shops in search of a few of those last production 1866s Winchester made in Central Fire, strictly for export.  Could be kinda fun.  With current garbage import restrictions, re-import could be problematic (antiques??) but finding a shooter or two would be way cool.

Lived in South America for damn near a year and it's not smart for a Gringo to mention "gun" there and that's even if you speak Spanish like me. Collectors pretty much "raped" Latin America in the years after WWII and what is left the families are keeping as heirlooms if allowed. Some no doubt are hidden in countries where ownership is illegal. I had dreams of encountering an Argentine S&W American or a Cuban pre-1866 carbine, but the odds were worse than the lottery. As well, thanks to decades of Westerns and nowadays the Internet these people know the value of these guns.

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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2017, 08:16:10 pm »

We shot our December match today and then had our clubs Christmas dinner after shooting 5 scenarios. 16 shooters participated in the fun. I went as Color Sgt Bourne and used my .45lc Webley Greene Target Model, a .455 Mk IV and my new 66 musket. I only had 2 misses with it on the first scenario where I tried to run the rifle too fast, I slowed down a tad and was clean the rest of the day. Fired 49 rounds out of the rifle which ran great. Just the occasional hitchiness due to my not working the lever all the way. A leather wrap on the lever and something non slip on the brass carbine buttplate would help it alot. Will post photos when the club's photographer sends me some.


Photos!




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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  1860 Henry (Moderators: Flint, Major 2)  |  Topic: Taylor's & Co. Win 1866 "Musket" .44-40 on Special Order List... « previous next »
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