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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Longbranch (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Silver Creek Slim, Camille Eonich)  |  Topic: The Chronicles of Grizzly Gulch - Cowboy Airsoft 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The Chronicles of Grizzly Gulch - Cowboy Airsoft  (Read 3500 times)
Coffinmaker
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2017, 04:31:08 pm »

Hang ON!!  Everybody just STOP for a minute and WAIT!!




I gotta go make another POT of POP CORN and open 'nother Ale.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2017, 05:23:17 pm »

 Grin

I know it's really hard to get tone from a post. Emojis help, but they're not perfect. Take my word for it: I'm genuinely not trying to say I'm right, I'm trying to say I'm confused.
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2017, 05:41:05 pm »

Let me take another cant on cowboy air soft vs CAS. You say that a/s is very popular overseas because real firearms are illegal to own, also that a/s is popular here for kids who obviously can't have access to real firearms and adults who choose to use a/s guns instead of real guns. Dollars to donuts, adults in the states who own a/s guns don't own real guns, except possibly as training aids. Why would you invert in a/s if you could buy a real firearm ( make believe full auto possibly excepted)? Lord knows there are plenty of real shooting sports to participate in, cas, ipsc, idpa, zsa, zoot shooters, wild bunch, rifle and pistol bullseye, skeet, clays, 3-gun, rimfire challenge, steel challenge, bowling pin, just to name a bunch. IMHO, Air soft shooters don't come from the ranks of shooters already involved in the shooting sports that constantly teach safety and correct gun handling. They come from the toy world where you point your cap-gun at your opponent, pull the trigger  and yell 'you're dead'. As I said earlier, it's the mindset that man on man air soft teaches that is what makes mixing airsoft and CAS not a good idea.
I'll take some of that pop corn there, Coffinmaker.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2017, 05:53:22 pm »

OK, not being a barstitch, or stomping on anybody, just having a nice discussion here.

It seems that I am either being "too vague" or need to take some folks by the hand and lead them down the train of thought.

Besdies MIL and commercial Avionics, I was also involved in Engineering Liability and legal case studies.
So here's a small sample, and some "I told you so's"

OldSchool Boy - no offense, but the commercial world ( no matter how technically intense) is not the same as MIL-SPEC Avionics.
If I screw up the software, PEOPLE DIE. The commercial world (outside of avionics) has decided the planning and testing involved "costs too much" and they will deal with a problem only after it happens, in court. I know because that's what Corporate Legal told me in 3 different commercial sfotware companies.

Also, There are few commerial comparisons outside of medicine. And even then there have been several
interesting Liability cases in which Medical Software failed and killed people ( recent: targeting 3-D XRAY Cancer machines; and  pacemaker sensors ). The triple-safe safety mentality simply wasn't embedded in the process or the programming mindset. The hardware had the failsafes in, as those design engineers had the mindset, but the software geniuses over-road it .

>>"Fencing is generally considered a safe sport, but you've seen people get injured. Should they shut down the fencing school?"
I used that as an example of "stuff happens", and to illustrate that "you better be ready for it".
Not saying anybody should shut down the sport.
I AM saying it is a real-world risk that needs to be brought up, discussed, and planned for.
 
If you don't consider possible risks and plan for them , then you deserve the problems you get when they happen.
THOSE WHO DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.

Here's one "I told ya so, saw it right off"  but iit ended well:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-breaking/2017/05/26/suspect-phoenix-comicon-identified-police/348697001/

Ya want another "I told you so"? You won't like it but it is a perfect example.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/index.html

*everything* is wrong about that situation.
children are not strong.
this child had no shooting experience
the instructor put himself in a "wrong position" - any Drill Instructor would have kicked his butt
they "shoulda known better" . do I really need say more?


Wapaloosie -
Part of me kinda likes the idea - sort of a real live version of Westworld.
Part of me takes pause".

>>airsoft can't fire live ammo

- ummm. right. we know that, I never said they could. I also brought up that LEOS and MIL use airsoft in training.

But LEO 's and MIL have very visible methods to discern airsoft from live-fire weapons. The ones I am familiar with also have a strict protocol involving live-weapon check-in/check-out and airsoft check-in/check-out AND several checkpoints before during and after that the weapons are inspected and confirmed to be what they are supposed to be. And LOTS of observes/coaches/referees .

If you are shooting crap at people, you HAVE to be safe

All it takes is a guy playing an airsoft game, having an airsoft gun identical to his SAA and getting tired, dehydrated, or distracted and mixing them up inadvertantly. Can't Happen? Tell the FBI trainers at the Albuquerque training center. They can show you the 9mm holes in the training house walls.

I am Not talking about "If you freak out and go to the parking lot to pull out your real gun? "  -
I am  talking about ACCIDENTS.

In our games, drawing from a holster , you STILL are aiming at a target and not a human. If Someone deliberately points
their piece at a person, EVERYBODY hollars at them. If somebody "goes nuts" with a live firearm there are MANY people there
who will notice RIGHT WAY and are able to stop them .

In Airsoft, you have *everybody* pointing an airsoft toy that looks like a real gun at *everybody else*. You are gonna need a lot of trained referees.

What you MIGHT do is go (with hat in hand) to talk to the LEO's who do this stuff ( or the people who run it for them)
and bounce your ideas and plans off of THEM, since they already "been there, done that, and got the liability insurance".

BigThing: Liability Insurance. You are gonna need it.

So.

You asked for feedback.
We gave it.
You are free to do as you like,
but don't complain if you don't care for our replies of caution.

Oh, and if  a passenger on the bus stands up and tells the driver he is about to drive into a sinkhole, is it really a good idea
to argue with him?

hope this helps, and good luck.
prof marvel

I'm asking for feedback on ideas within the game, not Airsoft.

BUT! It looks like I have become an ambassador for Airsoft in general on this forum. So I have no problem patiently addressing your concerns......

Airsoft is probably one of the safest sports you can participate in. Generally speaking you are NOT allowed to bring real firearms to an Airsoft game. There are exceptions with a few groups nationwide mixing blank fire in with Airsoft. They come from a reenactor back ground and have their own safety protocols in place.

But 99.9% of Airsoft groups are not going to allow real firearms onto the field for the exact reasons you have expressed.

All Airsoft games require eye protection of ansi Z87.1 to be worn at all times on the field.

And I think there is some confusion here, this is my first time promoting a cowboy Airsoft game. I have 20 years of experience running Airsoft games. Genres include, WW2, Vietnam, Russian vs NATO, CQC, US vs Taliban, etc, etc

I also have been shooting CAS on and off for about 10 years. And I do have some blank fire reenactment experience as well.

In all of those years I've seen some stitches from a fall on rocks and a chipped tooth. No broken bones, no loss of vision, no rambo psycho gun shot wounds, none of that......knock on wood.

People who play Airsoft understand it's Airsoft. Some of those people are into real firearms they call "real steel" and many are not and just stick with Airsoft.

Cowboy Airsoft guns are low ammo capacity and have a slow rate of fire. Most Airsoft games the rifles hold 300 rds per magazine and fire full auto. It's low risk even in the game of Airsoft which I feel is low risk.

Why? Why do this? Well....... I'm still of the generation that watched Bonanza and Gunsmoke as a kid. I was raised on a ranch and rode a horse and worked cows. Unfortunately the younger generations really have not experienced any of this. The cowboy way is dying and this is a way to spruce things up a bit with young people. Make it cool again!

And I have help with some older CAS guys who also participate in Airsoft. One does Dutch oven cooking which is a plus.

I have no doubt turn out will be low to start. Most of the 16 - 40 crowd is caught up about Navy SEALs or M4's and not Doc Holliday or Wild Bill Hickok or Colt SAA.



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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2017, 06:03:36 pm »

Let me take another cant on cowboy air soft vs CAS. You say that a/s is very popular overseas because real firearms are illegal to own, also that a/s is popular here for kids who obviously can't have access to real firearms and adults who choose to use a/s guns instead of real guns. Dollars to donuts, adults in the states who own a/s guns don't own real guns, except possibly as training aids. Why would you invert in a/s if you could buy a real firearm ( make believe full auto possibly excepted)? Lord knows there are plenty of real shooting sports to participate in, cas, ipsc, idpa, zsa, zoot shooters, wild bunch, rifle and pistol bullseye, skeet, clays, 3-gun, rimfire challenge, steel challenge, bowling pin, just to name a bunch. IMHO, Air soft shooters don't come from the ranks of shooters already involved in the shooting sports that constantly teach safety and correct gun handling. They come from the toy world where you point your cap-gun at your opponent, pull the trigger  and yell 'you're dead'. As I said earlier, it's the mindset that man on man air soft teaches that is what makes mixing airsoft and CAS not a good idea.
I'll take some of that pop corn there, Coffinmaker.

Most adult Airsoft games are ran by former military personnel. Participating in both sports? The command and control structure is way more complex at a Airsoft event than a CAS shoot. It's not just safety, but logistics and keeping track of hundreds of people patrolling on thousands of acres. For days on end, even at night depending on the game.

CAS is basically park your rig, load your cart, walk 100 yards (maybe), attend safety brief, stage your weapons and get ready to shoot.

I think that Airsoft gets bad press, because kids without parental control do stupid stuff in public places. We come down hard on people like that because it's bad for Airsoft and it's bad for guns in general.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2017, 06:41:17 pm »

"...CAS is basically park your rig, load your cart, walk 100 yards (maybe), attend safety brief, stage your weapons and get ready to shoot. "

My point exactly !   " quite frankly you are fishing in the wrong pond " 

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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2017, 07:35:38 pm »

Greetings OSB -

Prof, don't fret, I have no problem with a polite discussion. I'm not trying to attack anyone, just trying to understand.

No worries, mate!  as a philosophical discussion, I will continue, :-)
and address each of your points.

BTW  Go to their website and you see these guys are actually doing full-uniform War Games.
Note: WAR GAMES.
They make no mention of insurance or referees or safety procedures or any real organization.
they are operating on remote private property , and I saw no mention of informing neighbors or LEO's.
they pride themselves on their realism.
Their "toys" are indistinguishable from live weapons.

If these folks

 
showed up on one of the 40-100 acre properties nearby  me and had not informed me i would on the phone to
the Law Dogs in a heartbeat.

Even Re-enactors do not allow pointing "blank firing weapons" at another person, but these are "War Games".

Quote
You've reinforced your arguments, but I think the problem is that I'm just not getting what your conclusion is. The impression that I got is that you're arguing that this airsoft event shouldn't d happen

I don't care if they run it or not. It's up to them.  I will just choose not to play.
BUT  the OP posted here on CAS City ( a totally different game) and literally asked for input and if we wanted to play.
That opened the door and I am happy to point out all the potential problems that they seem to be ignoring.

Quote
you're arguing ..... because of inherent risks, namely that people will make a mistake and kill someone because they may confuse the airsoft guns for the real thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not correct.
My first point is about whether they have "appropriate" safety precautions, training and planning.
If they are just saying  "oh yeah we are good", that  doesn't cut it ; I have reviewed and critiqued too many badly thought out projects.

The second point is RULE 1:  
                    "never point any weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot"
not ANY projectile weapon.
Where does one draw the line?
paintball seems to be ok to most folks
BB guns and Pellet Guns are not OK to most folks.
There is a line that "airsoft " is crossing - especially due to "realism" and also I see a lot of airsofters are actively working
to increase power and range .

Quote
If that is in fact the point you're making, then my slippery slope is that you shouldn't be involved in CAS/SASS/NCOWS etc because the risks there are dramatically higher.

I disagree due to the following:
The SASS/ CAS sports have well thought out rules and regs, on paper, everybody has to read and abide and sign off on them.
The SASS/ CAS sports have numerous R.O. as well as everybody else watching out that all weapons are pointed downrange
The SASS/ CAS sports are run on safe ranges, well known to the locals and the LEO's
The SASS/ CAS sports have insurance
The SASS/ CAS sports have real first responders /EMTS onsite or instantly available
The SASS/ CAS sports  DO NOT allow pointing ANY weapon at another person.

( are ye seeing a theme here?  LOL )

Quote
In order for someone to accidentally murder another airsoft player, they'd have to bring a real gun to the event. Why would they? It's an airsoft game, no real guns need to be involved.

People do bring real firearms . It happens at many events. Especially at such very rural forrested events, where they are camping and cooking. Wanna face a bear with your airsoft weapon?
Usually they are "stowed" but mistakes happen.
A plan to reduce such mistakes should be in place.

Quote
CAS has range officers that check firearms to make sure they safe, why couldn't the same be done at an airsoft event?

As I pointed out, it could be done, but I do not see any plan in place for it to happen. Also, the number of Referees/ Safety officers
would need to be pretty large. Check out the Law Enforcement and Miliary training programs.

Quote
How many CAS shooters get killed by police because they're using real guns?

Straw man arguement.
SASS/ CAS events are on official ranges, well advertised and with local official approval. Not so these airsoft events.

Quote
For that matter, how often does it happen to airsoft players; should a single incident be enough to force airsoft to be banned? What about 50? What about 500? If you agree that at some point the risks require rules, do those same rules not apply to actual guns? If not, why not?

Not relevant to this discussion, that is literally another  "straw man" arguement.
We are talking about critiquing his plans and how to make his event safe, not about banning it.
And, they are pointing their weapons at each other . We don't .


Quote
Please understand, I'm not berating you, nor am I trying to even persuade you. I'm asking honest questions to try and understand where you're coming from, because I'm genuinely confused why people who participate in a sport using real firearms would be concerned over the theoretical risks of using fake firearms?

Once again,
- they don't mention enough prior forethought
- they don't mention   enough planning
- and my personal favorite " never point a  weapon at anything you don;t intend to shoot"

Even Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper disuaded people from shooting each at other with "wax loads"

Quote
Here's my take: Yes, there's some risk involved, as with any other activity. Anyone who participates needs to know the rules, and sign something saying they accept responsibility for those risks. If you're not comfortable with the risks, don't participate.

Yup, I plan not to, but for philosophical reasons, not due to risks.

Quote
I apply these same rules to pretty much everything, I suppose because I'm a bit more libertarian when it comes to personal responsibility. Not to say anyone else needs to agree with me, but I would like to understand why they don't, because maybe I'm wrong and need to consider it more. Happens all the time. Smiley

I actually agree you with "in general"  - personal responsibilty has fallen by the wayside.

I personally disagree with "certain" SASS rules but adhere to them whilst playing "their game" .

On the other end of the spectrum, the one time I played paintball in my callow and distant youth, a couple  of players got ejected.

A group showed up calling themselves a "squad" - They were lierally "Marine Wannabes" full surplus equip, etc. each had several combat knives, and rifles in their truck rifle racks. Got told to leave their knives in the vehilces.

During the game , one got all bent out of shape over a referee call. He reached for his knife sheath ( empty).
He got ejected, and escorted from the site by the sheriff. When I discussed it with the staff, they said they had seen it before, and were ready for "problems".  

The paintball staff saw trouble when the "squad"  showed up and started posturing, so they were ready. The staff seemed to have a "Baroom Bouncer" sense for trouble, they had  plenty of staff, plenty of referees and the sheriff was already informed and patrolling nearby.

Soooo, yeah. My point is to think things through, be aware of and ready for "problems".
My Warnings and discussion based on prior experience , not just blowing smoke out my butt.  LOL .

yhs
prof ( waxing philosophical ) marvel
 

 
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2017, 07:56:17 pm »

Greetings Wapaloosie !

I see we cross posted, and you already discussed some of the rambling crap I had brought up.
Unfortunately your website is pretty thin, so that's all I had to go on.

Yup, "War Games" are different from our game.
If you guys feel you have it all covered, then more power to you, and good luck.

If you are on private land you should be fine, just inform the neighbors.

If you are on public land be sure to let everybody know so you don't scare the campers like our one group of
Mountain Man Trekkers did by accident. Campers Thought they were in a time-warp Indian Raid  LOL

and just fyi,  ( voice of experience, liability case studies)  Waivers  are good (but not worth much, once it goes to court) ,
Insurance is better, nobody wants to go bankrupt :-)


best
prof marvel
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2017, 07:58:32 pm »

That picture was taken in the middle of 350 acre ranch outside of Rice, Wa.

Im sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest here. I thought i was trying to bring cowboys to airsoft Undecided
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2017, 08:14:01 pm »

Aha! I think I get the point (finally!). The concern seems to be that airsoft looks largely unregulated and unprofessional. I've actually participated in both airsoft and paintball. The airsoft event I was at was a commercial event in a designated area. There were rules, waivers, and all the rest. It was very professional and seemed no less safe to me than anything else where you run around and generally act silly. I assumed that's what Wapaloosie is trying to organize. Yes, I agree with you, if you just give realistic guns to people without any safety precautions you're asking for trouble. I don't think that's what he has in mind (but I'm assuming).

Phew!
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2017, 08:16:01 pm »

That picture was taken in the middle of 350 acre ranch outside of Rice, Wa.

Im sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest here. I thought i was trying to bring cowboys to airsoft Undecided

Oh, I love me a good civil discourse! No hornets nest, just an exchange of opinions and discussion!
And since this is on the "Longbranch Saloon" this thread is in the right place !

I was concerned because years ago on another forum, one fellow was trying to promote a very poorly thought out
"shoot em up" game somewhat like yours, but not well thought out and using BP revolvers to shoot hardened paintballs.

Aaaaaannnndd that's as far as he thought it out!

Then,  I mentioned the actor and tourists in Old Tucson who got  shot by a live round slipped into the mix during one of the Tucson Gunfight shows.

Bad stuff happens. Ya gotta have a plan to KEEP it from getting worse.  ( mitigation management )

I am all about planning events and "disaster plans" , because Bad Stuff really happens in the real world.

One example: I kept telling our customers to have *and test* computer backups and restores .

One customer found out the hard way, that the minimum wage guy they paid to change the tapes never did change them.
All they had was a single one week old backup. They went out of business when they got auditted.

Another customer took the backups, but never tested them . All backups were bad. Out of Business.

A third had 2 floors in the Twin Towers. All the backups were kept there, onsite . Out Of Business.

Another example:
( see you made me do it) the Bad Guys in London running down civilians with trucks. Could have been prevented ( or mitigated ) with the  concrete barriers that are in common use at events over here. Some barriers are really pretty, too  - just look at the big red balls in front of Target Stores. Didja think they were there "just for looks" ?  they are spaced to stop vehicles from running over the shoppers. Target's Intent was mainly accident liabilty, but the "bad guy " aspect was also considered ( look, mr ceo, it's a plus! ) .



yhs
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2017, 08:17:01 pm »

That picture was taken in the middle of 350 acre ranch outside of Rice, Wa.

Im sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest here. I thought i was trying to bring cowboys to airsoft Undecided

If it was in my area, I'd show up! Seems to me like you're giving it a lot of thought. Then again, I played paintball and ended up bleeding so I don't always make the best decisions.  Wink

In response to Prof: British Airways recently had a major outage that grounded flights. The problem? Someone unplugged a server. Good lord, that's an expensive mistake.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2017, 08:24:46 pm »

Looks lke everybodies online!

Most adult Airsoft games are ran by former military personnel. Participating in both sports? The command and control structure is way more complex at a Airsoft event than a CAS shoot. It's not just safety, but logistics and keeping track of hundreds of people patrolling on thousands of acres. For days on end, even at night depending on the game.

CAS is basically park your rig, load your cart, walk 100 yards (maybe), attend safety brief, stage your weapons and get ready to shoot.

I think that Airsoft gets bad press, because kids without parental control do stupid stuff in public places. We come down hard on people like that because it's bad for Airsoft and it's bad for guns in general.

Quote
And I think there is some confusion here, this is my first time promoting a cowboy Airsoft game. I have 20 years of experience running Airsoft games. Genres include, WW2, Vietnam, Russian vs NATO, CQC, US vs Taliban, etc, etc

Again ( due to crross-posting) Looks like you guys feel you have it all covered, more power to you, and good luck.
again,  Waivers  are good , Insurance is better, nobody wants to go bankrupt :-)

all the best
prof ( getting too old to run around the woods at night if I don't hafta ) marvel
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2017, 07:57:35 pm »

It is interesting that there was a thought of bringing Cowboys into AirSoft.  I doubt you'll find more than a couple of Cowboys even interested.  Old School Boy not withstanding.  You see, we're not training for the apocalypse.  We're not training for the Walking Dead.

Understand this.  The Military community has found people fight exactly the way they have trained.  It's not necessarily real bright to deliberately train folks to actually shoot one another, which is exactly what this quasi military stuff does.

Here's the deal.  CAS doesn't need AirSoft.  Frankly, we're totally immersed in the game we already play.  Asking folks to invest (AirSoft isn't cheap) in an entirely NEW game that is diametrically opposed to ALL the safety rules we currently play under is a fool's errand.

What an incredible waste of Band Width.  (Yes.  I certainly am opinionated.  In this instance ... VERY)

Coffinmaker

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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2017, 08:23:34 pm »

(Carefully stepping off coffinmaker's lawn)

 Wink
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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2017, 02:15:40 pm »

It is interesting that there was a thought of bringing Cowboys into AirSoft.  I doubt you'll find more than a couple of Cowboys even interested.  Old School Boy not withstanding.  You see, we're not training for the apocalypse.  We're not training for the Walking Dead.

Understand this.  The Military community has found people fight exactly the way they have trained.  It's not necessarily real bright to deliberately train folks to actually shoot one another, which is exactly what this quasi military stuff does.

Here's the deal.  CAS doesn't need AirSoft.  Frankly, we're totally immersed in the game we already play.  Asking folks to invest (AirSoft isn't cheap) in an entirely NEW game that is diametrically opposed to ALL the safety rules we currently play under is a fool's errand.

What an incredible waste of Band Width.  (Yes.  I certainly am opinionated.  In this instance ... VERY)

Coffinmaker



Yes....safety rules for Airsoft or Blank fire are quite different than freaking shooting REAL bullets at a target range. Thanks for clarifying that one!!!

The only bandwidth wasted here was your post.
.
If you don't wanna come? Then don't come! Pretty simple.

But I'm not going to debate the safety concerns of Airsoft with anyone anymore. It's a NON ISSUE. You can buy event insurance for civil war reenactments, Airsoft, paintball, laser tag, etc. Plenty of non lethal hobbies that actually DO point guns in some form or another at people.

And by the way, I got my start in cowboy action shooting when the local club invited our Airsoft group out for a meet and greet. Our booth was right next to the National Guard recruitment laser tag shoot house.......

If Airsoft some how confuses you with the operation of real guns and real bullets? I think it's probably best you don't own real firearms.

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