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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderator: Cuts Crooked)  |  Topic: Seriously Important Question ?? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Coffinmaker
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« on: April 20, 2017, 06:18:09 pm »


Avid Ballisticians.  Fellow makers of Smudge.  The royal Keepers of THE KNOWLEDGE.  I have a quest.  I present for your perusal ..... TWO identical handguns.  Same Frame.  Same Barrel.  Same barrel length.  Everything the same.  Everything.  Except, these guns are "convertibles".  They can be, and are shot with both Percussion and Suppository cylinders. 

The Quest??

When shot with percussion cylinders, These guns produce all the expected spooge.  They gum up the water table, gum up the breach end of the barrel, gum up the arbor and of course the hammer and hammer channel are spoog'd.  Situation ...... normal.  No problem .. to be expected.

When shot with the suppository cylinders, there is next to no spooge.  Very little on the breach end of the barrel, very little on the cylinder face, almost none on the arbor and none on the water table.  Clean up is just super simple.

WHY??

Coffinmaker
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St. George
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 06:35:49 pm »

Likely because the load's encapsulated, just like a brass cartridge case, and the entire round is carried down the bore before fully disintegrating.

Scouts Out!
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Fingers McGee
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 06:41:16 pm »

I suspect it has something to do with a solid primer instead of a nipple that allows gasses to be expelled out the back of the cylinder; and the more complete burning of powder due to the crimped bullet requiring more energy to override the crimp vs amount of energy required by a swaged ball.

But;  I'm no ballistician nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night
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Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
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wildman1
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 10:36:26 pm »

What Fingers said. Compression and CRIMP give a more complete burn of the powder. If you take equal amounts of powder and the same weight bullet and shoot them both, one in cartridge form and one in a cap and ball revolver you will get more velocity from the cartridge revolver and a cleaner burn of the powder.
wM1
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hellgate
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 10:43:56 pm »

Also, the cylinder gap may be much smaller in the suppository cylinder and thus less fouling on the front.
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 11:20:59 pm »

+1.  The brass cases seal better and burn the powder charge more efficiently than loose powder and ball.
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 09:48:15 am »

All of the above!

Isn't it a wonder that the conversion to "suppository" type arms was so quick and complete? Almost as fast as the common usage of fad powders once devised.

What puzzles me is why the Rollin White patent was allowed to choke off revolver developement for so long. AND; My dear Coffinmaker, I thought you knew everything, like my "personal manager"! Wink
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Navy Six
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 11:57:14 am »

Funny you should mention this. I finally had a chance (2 days ago) to shoot my pair of Uberti second Model Dragoons that I fitted with R&D cylinders. During cleanup at home I was struck by the much reduced fouling around the hammer and recoil shield area-- compared to the percussion cylinder use--even less than typical cartridge Single Actions. Of course the R&D cylinders completely enclose the cartridge at the back end so I suppose that was to be expected. The load was the EPP-UG 45 over 38grs of 2F Olde Enysford. The other observation was when I shoot that above same load as loose powder in the percussion cylinders, both guns shoot high(3-4in) and left(2in) at about 10 yds. The same combination enclosed in a 45 Colt case and both guns now shoot dead on at that distance with a 2in group.
 However a pair of Uberti 51 Navies with Kirst cylinders are balky at the cylinder/barrel area and the cylinder face must be wiped down after every couple stages. The Dragoons don't foul nearly as much in this same area.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 04:02:47 pm »

Sir Charles,

Strange as it may seem ........ I had already come to exactly the same conclusion as our ex-steam'd brethren when I originally started playing with Cap Guns and Suppository conversion cylinders.  A more complete burn is achieved with cartridges and nice firm crimp.  An interesting additional tidbit, in these same guns, the level of recoil from a Cowboy 45 Special case with 16Gr of 2f and a 130Gr bullet,  is actually heavier than the recoil of a percussion gun with 18Gr of 2f and a 150Gr Ball.  Encapsulation of the propellent, with a nice firm crimp to start the burn is key.

Ain't guns FUN!!!

Coffinmaker

In the HALL of the GUN my Brethren ..... Let us PLAY!!
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 06:18:33 pm »

This is why I shoot C45Spl with J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullets from my Pietta 1860 open tops with Kirst Konversion cylinders.  You've found me. . .

DD-MDA
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderator: Cuts Crooked)  |  Topic: Seriously Important Question ?? « previous next »
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