Advice on Colt Third Gen Cylinder Throat Diameter Issue

[Jimeast]

I recently acquired an unfired Colt 3rd Gen SAA in .45 Colt that has cylinder throat diameters that the bullets ( cast .452 LSWC) fall through.  This seems too large.  When I try and measure the best I can, it seems like the diamaters are not consistant, but all are .4555-.4565 or somewhere there-abouts.  In researching this a little, they are within SAAMI spec, but it seems like it might be an issue if I plan to shoot it a lot.

Other issues abound.  When I got it home, I cleaned it, went to the range, put 10-20 rounds through it and put it away until I can get it in for repair.  In general, the other issues can be resolved by a good SAA gunsmith without replacing major components, but I've read that usually a new cylinder is required when the cylinder throats are considered too large.  I am interested in opinions of this issue and the potential accuracy and leading issues, etc... if I get the rest of the revolver tuned.  I plan on shooting it frequently.

[Scattered Thumbs]

Your cylinder throats are OK.

Bullets for .45 Colt are .454.

PS. Those .452 LSWC bullets are meant for .45ACP.

[Coffinmaker]

Gotta Love It  

If you send it back to Colt, they will return it with a Note "Within Specification."  Don't waste the postage and the "inspection" charge.

Your cylinder throats are "normal" (that's a setting on a dryer) for Colt.  Scattered Thumbs is spot on.  For your Colt, "normal" diameter for bullets, 454.  I do suggest slugging your bore however.  You will probably find groove diameter something well in excess of 452.  Also correct, your 452 LSWC are intended for 45 ACP.  Wrong bullet.  You may want to try 200Gr RNFP @ 454.

As a beginning, I'd suggest changing out your Main Spring for a reduced after-market Main Spring.  Either the Spring from VTI Gunparts or the "Lee's Gunsmithing Gunfighter" kit.  I'd also swap out the trigger/bolt spring  for a Pietta item.  The trigger/bolt spring is about 30% of the hammer draw resistance.  Timing and bolt rise should also be correct.'

Coffinmaker

PS:  Almost forgot the rest of your query.  With the 452 bullet, accuracy will probably suck.  With the 452 bullet, you'll probably also see excess leading.

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[Jimeast]

It's slugging at .4523 or a little less.  The slug gets a lot harder to push through as it approaches the forcing cone side of the barrel.  The projectiles that I am using come in around .4527 and are 255 grain LSWC from Missouri Bullet  (measurements for all are according to my micrometer)  Missouri Bullet differentiates between an ACP and Colt bullet, so not sure if the diameters are slightly different.

[Scattered Thumbs]

If you are using smokeless to reload. Just skip resizing and lube those bullets with liquid alox, and you ought to be just fine. And have no leading.

[Coffinmaker]

Just realized I screwed up whom said what to whom and went back and corrected it (I think).

Coffinmaker

[Sagebrush Burns]

I believe that far too much fuss is made over the "oversize throat issue" in Colt SAAs.  Unless you are a competition bulls-eye shooter they will get the job done in more than satisfactory fashion.  If two inch groups off-hand at 25 yards and hitting 18" steel at 300 yards are not good enough, you need to look into more specialized equipment.

[Pettifogger]

Colt and everyone else switched from .454 grooves to .452 after WWII to standardize their barrels.  Before fretting about what "might" be ideal go shoot the thing.  Remember 99.9999999999% of revolvers have never had their bores slugged or chambers measured and they shoot just fine.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

 I recently bought a 3rd Generation in 45 Colt that had the exact same.problem, the cylinder throats measured anywhere from .455"-.456". This may be within SAAMI's specifications of acceptable, but if falls within my personal specifications of BS.

  A good revolver manufacturer knows the cylinder throats diameter should never be less than the groove diameter of the barrel (pay attention, Ruger), nor should they be more than .001"-.0015" over. Colt didn't seem to care about this, at least during certain periods of production. Oh sure, if all you ever shoot are big targets at a little over arms length, you can get by with such mismatched measurements. But I personally refuse to pay a premium for something like a Colt only to have it shoot dinner plate size groups at 25 yds.

  So the solutions. I sold my Colt without ever even firing it. No need in converting one from unfired to fired just to confirm that it's not going to shoot worth a flip. Mine was replaced with an identically configured USFA whose measurements are as they should be, and it shows on the target range. The second solution is to tailor the bullets to the revolver, which won't be easy when the throats are .003" or so larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. Years ago I read one of Dave Scovill's columns in Handloader magazine in which he addressed this very subject. His solution is to use a soft, hollow base bullet. In his case he used Remington bullets as they load in the 45 Colt which met this criteria and he obtained good accuracy with these bullets in the subject Colt revolver.

  Of course you could always sell the Colt and buy 2 or 3 Uberti's with the money and rest easy that they will be made correctly.

  Good luck,
  CHT

[Jimeast]

Pettifogger, I learned a lot from your posts over the past year and always enjoy hearing what you've got to say.  I did take the gun to a range and put it away after a few rounds.  It shoots 3-4" to the right or left (can't remember which) and high at 20 ft, When I got home and checked it, the cylinders are out of alignment with the barrel in what I think is fairly considerable misalignment.  And there are a number of other things that need to be done to make this a fun shooter.  I may be over-reacting a little regarding the throat sizes, But there was a lot of stains on the barrel end of the cylinder after firing just a few rounds.  More stains than my Ruger has in over 2000 rounds.  Also, one or two cylinder ends has more significant staining than the other throat openings.

I'm sure at some point I'll enjoy having this Colt, but getting a Colt in MA is not an inexpensive proposition, finding out it needs what might be considerable work takes the experience down the toilet a little.  (Colts are not on the approved roster in MA, so everything has to be C&R or existing in MA, pre-ban.)  (Also, the only approved handguns in .45 colt are Ruger and S&W) 

 

Colt and everyone else switched from .454 grooves to .452 after WWII to standardize their barrels.  Before fretting about what "might" be ideal go shoot the thing.  Remember 99.9999999999% of revolvers have never had their bores slugged or chambers measured and they shoot just fine.

[Jimeast]

Of course you could always sell the Colt and buy 2 or 3 Uberti's with the money and rest easy that they will be made correctly.
Good luck,
CHT

I hear you and when I am on business travel and visit various guns stores, I look with great envy at all the nice SA choices most of the country has.  Unless I can find pre-ban Uberti's or similar (like the Colt I bought) in MA, I am out of luck.

[Scattered Thumbs]

I recently bought a 3rd Generation in 45 Colt that had the exact same.problem, the cylinder throats measured anywhere from .455"-.456". This may be within SAAMI's specifications of acceptable, but if falls within my personal specifications of BS.

  A good revolver manufacturer knows the cylinder throats diameter should never be less than the groove diameter of the barrel (pay attention, Ruger), nor should they be more than .001"-.0015" over. Colt didn't seem to care about this, at least during certain periods of production. Oh sure, if all you ever shoot are big targets at a little over arms length, you can get by with such mismatched measurements. But I personally refuse to pay a premium for something like a Colt only to have it shoot dinner plate size groups at 25 yds.

  So the solutions. I sold my Colt without ever even firing it. No need in converting one from unfired to fired just to confirm that it's not going to shoot worth a flip. Mine was replaced with an identically configured USFA whose measurements are as they should be, and it shows on the target range. The second solution is to tailor the bullets to the revolver, which won't be easy when the throats are .003" or so larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. Years ago I read one of Dave Scovill's columns in Handloader magazine in which he addressed this very subject. His solution is to use a soft, hollow base bullet. In his case he used Remington bullets as they load in the 45 Colt which met this criteria and he obtained good accuracy with these bullets in the subject Colt revolver.

  Of course you could always sell the Colt and buy 2 or 3 Uberti's with the money and rest easy that they will be made correctly.

  Good luck,
  CHT

So, you sold it without ever firing it, is that right?

And that makes you an expert because? 

[Scattered Thumbs]

I hear you and when I am on business travel and visit various guns stores, I look with great envy at all the nice SA choices most of the country has.  Unless I can find pre-ban Uberti's or similar (like the Colt I bought) in MA, I am out of luck.

At least give it a good run for it's money first.

Or as they used to say back when: Don't go off half-cocked.

[Jimeast]

Thanks for all your advice, I plan on keeping it, just a little frustrated at the time and effort that's required to get something that is supposed to be a high quality acquisition up to snuff.  The color casing looks awesome and the natural way it feels in my hand is also great.  Much different than the way the Ruger feels, but the Ruger does shoot really well out of the box.  I think the Uberti's and Pietta SAA replicas also feel really nice, but I have limited experience handling those because I've had to be out of state to touch one so far.

At least give it a good run for it's money first.

Or as they used to say back when: Don't go off half-cocked.

[Scattered Thumbs]

Not all Rugers shoot well out of the box. Ask anyone who bought one in .44-40.

The problem was just the opposite you reported, tight throats and large barrels. Now that is a real problem accuracy wise.

[Mossyrock]

In the last 35 years, I have owned seven 3rd Gen Colt SAAs.  Five .45 Colt, one .44-40, and one .357 magnum.  The last two were in .45 Colt, and they both went down the road for the same reason: oversized and inconsistent chamber throats.  The last one had throats that ranged from .453" to .458", and one of them wasn't even ROUND.  In addition to that, the bolt dropped early and was chewing up the cylinder.  I had planned on that being my "always SAA", so I started making plans to bite the bullet, send it to Hamilton Bowen with a new .357 Magnum cylinder to rechamber and to fix the timing.  The more I thought about it, the madder I got.  I finally sold it out of disgust, and swore off new Colts forever.  Brand loyalty is a two-way street.  If they want us to be loyal to them, they have to produce a product that is worthy of our investment.  If it matters, I replaced the Colt with a USFA SAA and never looked back.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

So, you sold it without ever firing it, is that right?

And that makes you an expert because?  

  About 10 years ago we bought some property in a rural area and built a house. The property is and was fairly fraught with rattlesnakes (two species) as well as a fairly common variety of non-venomous snake. It didn't take long until I could at a glance tell the difference in the three of them and within 4 or 5 years I could tell which variety of rattlesnake was coiled up on the porch. But that doesn't mean I'm a herpetologist.

  Likewise, I've spent the last 5 or 6 years working with revolvers, casting bullets for them and figuring out what makes them shoot little groups at fairly distant targets and what makes them not shoot little groups. Of course I could've just read the works of Elmer Keith, Dave Scovill, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, et al, but where's the fun in that? Regardless, that doesn't make me an expert, it just means that I've learned.

   I happen to own two revolvers with the same problem as Mr. Jimeast; a Uberti .44-40 and a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special. The Bulldog was close to awful and with most loads and bullets, I'd get nice oblong holes in the paper at 25 yds. Then one day that little dim light bulb in my head turned on. I grabbed a .430" cast bullet and found it dropped freely through the cylinder throats. I found some unsized, slightly oversized .44 caliber bullets, ran them through a .432" die, loaded up a handful and trotted out to the bench. Problem solved. (This is probably a good time to mention that I don't make a habit of slugging barrels and cylinder throats unless I'm having accuracy problems.) So now the dim light bulb got a little brighter and I grabbed the Uberti's .44-40 cylinder. Again, a .430" bullet dropped freely through the throats, same solution as above.

    But, since I'm no expert, here's some reference material from some real-world experts who are going to also tell you that you're going to have to match the bullet diameter to the cylinder throat diameter.

   http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=106&tocid=1567

   http://americanhandgunner.com/everyday-workin-loads/

   There's lots more information such as this out there.

   Good luck!

 CHT

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

  Let me add that I went through something similar with a Ruger New Vaquero, only it's throats were too small, but the results were the same. I had the throats opened/uniformed to .452", fire-lapped the cursed tight spot out of the barrel, and things got much better.

 CHT

[Scattered Thumbs]

OooK.

Not knowing your background as a shooter I'd like to know your definition of tiny groups. 1', 1.5', 2', 3'?
And at what distance, 25 yards, 50 yards 100 yards, heck I can't see the target anymore yards?
And what type of shooting. Ransom rest, one handed, two handed, three handed (if you got them)?

The average SAA is capable of 3' at 25 yards, one handed, provided you do your part . And those "out of specs" Colts can do it all day long.

It is true that the specs for .45 Colt have changed since back when. But you got to remember that the original round with a blackpowder load can forgive a lot of odd specs. The one thing it really doesn't forgive is throat dimentions below barrel dimentions.

Side note: You might be surprised at the odd measurements you'd get from a tackdriver Smith & Wesson # 14 Target masterpiece that it still is capable of 1,5' at 25 yards.  

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

OooK.

Not knowing your background as a shooter I'd like to know your definition of tiny groups. 1', 1.5', 2', 3'?
And at what distance, 25 yards, 50 yards 100 yards, heck I can't see the target anymore yards?
And what type of shooting. Ransom rest, one handed, two handed, three handed (if you got them)?

The average SAA is capable of 3' at 25 yards, one handed, provided you do your part . And those "out of specs" Colts can do it all day long.

It is true that the specs for .45 Colt have changed since back when. But you got to remember that the original round with a blackpowder load can forgive a lot of odd specs.

  Don't own a Ransom rest. I normally shoot 100 yd. groups from the bench, but rarely shoot at that range anymore. 99% of my shooting is at 50 yds. About 1/2 of that is fired offhand with the rest fired from a seated, back-rested position.


 

 





 In MY experience you're not going to get groups such as the ones pictured above with revolvers whose cylinder throats are all over the map. But if those type revolvers work for you, I'm happy for you.

  When is said "tiny", I used it as hyperbole, in jest, as a figure of speech.

  CHT