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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Lighten Loads with Coarser Granulation? 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Lighten Loads with Coarser Granulation?  (Read 4433 times)
Cholla Hill Tirador
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« on: December 29, 2016, 04:11:41 pm »


  I finally have a full brace of old timey 38-40's and would like to try them at a match, using BP of course. Problem =1 A full case of 3Fg yields high velocities that would likely be frowned upon. Problem =2 is I'd rather not have to mess with fillers in an effort to reduce loads. So...
    Would the use of a coarser powder like 1F or 2F help since they would provide less weight powder but still fill the case? I've loaded some old 2F GOEX that was in metal cans and velocity with it was substantially lower (+/- 200 fps) vs. Swiss 3F. But I wasn't sure if it was because the GOEX was coarse or because it was of lower quality.
  Thanks for any advice.

   CHT
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2016, 04:17:27 pm »

CHT: Using 2Fg is the usual solution, and is perfectly OK.
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 04:53:47 pm »

CHT,

Yep.  Using the coarser granulations results in lower velocity as well as less felt recoil.  Perfectly OK.

Coffinmaker
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2016, 06:44:25 pm »

My custom 38-40 recoils sharply.  I'm still working up loads for it, but 38 grains of FFFg actually hurts my hands and ears.  I'll be trying #2 FFg Schuetzen.  My boolit is the DD-38-40 290 grain Big Lube boolit.  I had to have a custom mold made up to accommodate the odd size barrel.  After reaming the chambers to match the barrel, I had to pan lube the boolets or else buy a custom sizing die.  But, this mystery pistol will belch fire and smoke in the coming season.

She's a pretty gun for a Gunfighter.  Lethal and deadly.  Best in the right hand.

DD-MDA
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2016, 09:28:17 pm »

Dick. Did your finger get away with you? Isn't that a 190gr rather than a 290gr bullet?
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2016, 11:16:49 pm »

Oops Noz,

My digital whiskey got in front of my wisdom.  Yer' rite.  It's a 190 grain Big Lube boolit.  Still plenty of thump.  I consider the 38-40 to be the finest balance between thump and clang for SASS shooting.

Whoopee!

DD-MDA
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2016, 11:31:22 pm »

I find that 30-32 grains (by weight) of FFg will fill the 38-40 case, with a slight compression. 

And the velocities generated by any BP load are fine for CAS.  Only wimpy gamers complain about the noise and smoke.  The folks at my club think it's great fun when I come to the line.

Swiss will give higher velocities than the same volume and granulation of standard Goex.  Goex Olde Enysford is quite comparable to Swiss.
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2017, 10:59:01 am »

 1.3 c/c of 2F is what I use in the .45 CAS Special ( .45 Short) with the 170 Big Lube bullet load for revolvers. The FFFg load (1.3 c/c) 210 bullet for rifle. That revolver load makes a somewhat lighter recoil for my old tired wrists.
But they smoke and boom driving the fad nitro shooters nuts,
Yr' Obt' Svt'
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Cholla Hill Tirador
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2017, 03:35:56 am »

  I finally got around to doing this. Picked up 1 lb. of Old E 2Fg. Using a 1.9cc gave me enough powder to give slight compression, but velocity was only slightly reduced vs. Swiss 3Fg. With a 178 gr. bullet cast from a Lyman 40143 mould, my old 24" Winchester netted 1268 fps (a reduction of only a 50 or so fps) and 815 out of a 5 1/2" Bisley. I hate to mess with using a filler as it just adds another step to the process, so I guess I'll just live with it.

 The Colt has a cylinder gap that's a bit on the large side so the cylinder was covered with a fairly heavy layer of black soot after only 10 rounds. The rifle, after 15 rounds was fouled pretty badly which surprised my as I was under the impression that Old E was comparable in quality to Swiss, which is the only other BP I've used. The fouling in the rifle was pretty hard and as dry as could be, but I expected that since I had lubed with a smokeless, albeit beeswax-based, lube.

  CHT
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2017, 03:54:00 pm »

Howdy Cholla Hill Tirador,

You've hit on the reason Big Lube®LLC bullets are so popular with black powder shooters.  The fouling stays soft and blows out with the next shot.  Your second and last shot of the encounter the same amount of fouling.  Accuracy and function stay along with the fun.

DD-MDA
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2017, 07:46:47 pm »

I'm sure some would consider me certifiable but I got some Grafs Reenactor to load 10 gauge shotgun shells.  Then just to see if it would work I loaded it in C45S and it worked fine.  I then loaded my Pieata 51 Confederate 44s with it and it worked fine.
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Cholla Hill Tirador
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 10:26:30 pm »

Howdy Cholla Hill Tirador,

You've hit on the reason Big Lube®LLC bullets are so popular with black powder shooters.  The fouling stays soft and blows out with the next shot.  Your second and last shot of the encounter the same amount of fouling.  Accuracy and function stay along with the fun.

DD-MDA

 I have a few of your 38-40 bullets I intend to try, hopefully tomorrow. I was hoping to not have to buy another mould that casts a bullet that holds more lube, but may have to. Awhile back I experimented with duplex loads in my 44-40, as per John Kort's recommendation, and found it made a remarkable difference in the amount of fouling.

 CHT
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Cholla Hill Tirador
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2017, 02:04:25 pm »

 
UPDATE:

 I reduced from 1.9cc/28 grs. to 1.6cc/24.0 grs. of the Old E 2f and .5cc of Cream of Wheat with the bullet from the Lyman 40143 mould. Chronographed @ 1176 fps, 35 e.s. I'm in the process of relocating my range and haven't moved the bench yet so I had to shoot the 75 yd. target by standing, leaning against a spindly limb of a mesquite tree. Even under those conditions it grouped 2 1/2" - 3" @ 75 yds. After 15 rounds fouling wasn't bad at all where after that many with the same bullet and 1.9 cc of the Old E it was quite bad.

 Hope to have time to shoot more tomorrow.

 CHT
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Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2017, 09:57:25 pm »

The key to fouling control is using the proper bullet (carries a lot of lube) and the proper BP lube (SPG or comparable home brew).   I'll shoot an entire 2 or 3 day match without cleaning either my revolvers or rifle with absolutely zero issues.  I may spray a little moose milk in the barrel/cylinder gap along the line, but barrel fouling is almost zilch. 

This applies to all my 32-20's, 38-40's, 44-40's, etc.  3 or 4 patches and a pass with a bore snake and bore is shiny clean.

Lot's of proper BP lube = clean bore  Grin
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Cholla Hill Tirador
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 09:25:20 pm »

The key to fouling control is using the proper bullet (carries a lot of lube) and the proper BP lube (SPG or comparable home brew).   I'll shoot an entire 2 or 3 day match without cleaning either my revolvers or rifle with absolutely zero issues.  I may spray a little moose milk in the barrel/cylinder gap along the line, but barrel fouling is almost zilch. 

This applies to all my 32-20's, 38-40's, 44-40's, etc.  3 or 4 patches and a pass with a bore snake and bore is shiny clean.

Lot's of proper BP lube = clean bore  Grin

 Yep. I know this full well as I've done quite a bit of experimenting with BP in a 44-40 Sporting Rifle. I found that a bullet cast from an NOE mould that indeed has a large lube groove worked great, even with beeswax-based "smokeless" lube.

  I guess I'm a little perplexed at how the original loads from 130+ years ago worked with a similar bullet having only two smallish lube grooves.

 CHT
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greyhawk
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2017, 12:01:46 am »

Yep. I know this full well as I've done quite a bit of experimenting with BP in a 44-40 Sporting Rifle. I found that a bullet cast from an NOE mould that indeed has a large lube groove worked great, even with beeswax-based "smokeless" lube.

  I guess I'm a little perplexed at how the original loads from 130+ years ago worked with a similar bullet having only two smallish lube grooves.

 CHT

Some food for thought on yr last question
First off we gotta acknowledge that any of those old guys that shot a lot were at least as gun savvy as the best around today.
1) Powder quality - it all goes kaboom and mostly it does the job ok - but there is a huge difference in the fouling level of different powders - something I kinda knew but got a good lesson when I started to make my own - willow charcoal homemade is streets ahead of Goex, Sheutzen (aka Wano), and most of the chinese fireworks powder - that said - thirty years ago we bought one lot of chinese fireworks powder that burnt beautiful clean - (never shot Swiss so I dont know about it)

2) A close look at those old molds - most of em got decent lube grooves - bigger than most modern molds - not anything like the excess of the big lube molds but better than a smokeless mold.

3) Realistically - how many times did those old timers shoot more than five shots at any target ?

4) Some of em got in a fight or two - mostly the target would have been big and close - nerves probably played a bigger part than accuracy

5) If its your scalp on the line and you been at it for a while you would likely do ANYTHING to keep that gun shooting - including pouring part of the contents of your water canteen down the barrel during a lull in hostilities - for an instant cleanout and a bit of cooling - so what if some gets in the action - later is a good time to fix that.

We dunno - we were'nt there - but its interesting to ponder on.
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1961MJS
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2018, 02:48:08 pm »

...
2) A close look at those old molds - most of em got decent lube grooves - bigger than most modern molds - not anything like the excess of the big lube molds but better than a smokeless mold.

3) Realistically - how many times did those old timers shoot more than five shots at any target ?

4) Some of em got in a fight or two - mostly the target would have been big and close - nerves probably played a bigger part than accuracy

5) If its your scalp on the line and you been at it for a while you would likely do ANYTHING to keep that gun shooting - including pouring part of the contents of your water canteen down the barrel during a lull in hostilities - for an instant cleanout and a bit of cooling - so what if some gets in the action - later is a good time to fix that.

We dunno - we were'nt there - but its interesting to ponder on.


Hi

I shoot with the GAF in Skirmish format.  We can have 60 rounds for 20-40 targets per stage, so these questions just came up.  This year we are shooting black in anything invented prior to 1886.  The suggestion of a small funnel and a canteen, at least between stages was suggested.  I think that the only old-timers that shot a whole lot in a day were in places like the Little Big Horn etc.

Later
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2018, 03:04:50 pm »

Best I can find, the troopers at the Little big Horn were issued 100 rounds per man.
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 04:34:12 pm »

I've often said that if Custer's men had been shooting Big Lube® bullets, they'd have won.  Well, I did say that.  However I wonder how many, if any, had their guns quit because of fouling.  Think maybe the Indians were shooting my bullets?

DD-MDA
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 11:20:54 am »

I believe in the positives of the right amounts of proper BP lube in shooting black powder but no amount of lube would have made a difference in the outcome of the LBH battle. Due to the archeological work at the LBH battlefield we now know the vastly superior firepower of the native Americans over the troopers. I am not trying to start arguments — for the curious there are entire books on what weapons were used by which side in the fight.
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 01:39:15 pm »

I agree  treebeard!

Winchester did already have a large lubed bullet available.  But, of course, I'm prejudiced toward Big Lube® bullets.  As I play the fantasy game of SASS matches, I like to think my bullets could have made a difference at LBH.  Be it known that I only play for fun.

DD-MDA
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 09:57:28 pm »

I agree  treebeard!

Winchester did already have a large lubed bullet available.  But, of course, I'm prejudiced toward Big Lube® bullets.  As I play the fantasy game of SASS matches, I like to think my bullets could have made a difference at LBH.  Be it known that I only play for fun.

DD-MDA

Dick
Something for you to think about
Blokes shooting original rifles (with the old time slow twist) I believe are gonna encounter accurracy problems with the big lube boolits due to lack of stability - they need lighter = shorter  -  say 180grain 44/40 and 160grain 38/40 - so there is room for the big lube groove without making the boolit too long for the twist rate - particularly so with the reduced loads that CAS uses - not a matter of if but when I reckon - wont matter on a bucket size target at ten yards but could get kinda aggravatin to see boolits going through the paper sideways at 50 yards plus. Been there done it a couple times. Not with problem with modern barrels with more agressive twist rates !!!
ps think Custer derserved ta loose his har and proly still woulda - trouble with all these ego driven galoots they take a bunch of innocent bystanders with em !
keep havin fun !!
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David Battersby
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2018, 08:50:11 pm »

I use a card wad in the 44-40 for a reduced load. It basically reduces the powder charge by ten grains and comes close to duplicating the 44 Henry cartridge. While I do not participate in CAS , I do shoot Lever Action Silhouette.  It does not require 36 grains of Swiss 2F to knock over the 40 meter chickens. I have never broken a chicken, but they ring like a bell while flying towards the 50 meter pigs. (and I get some funny looks from the match director) . I tried Cream of Wheat, and even though it worked it was WORK.  I then tried Circle Fly Wads from Track of the Wolf.  A .125 card wad took up about 10 grains of space in the cartridge. The card wad is also very easy to install. I simply place the wad into the case mouth and use the powder compression die to push the card and powder to the same depth as a full charge of Swiss 2F. No adjusting the powder compression die, just a smaller charge of powder. The wads only take a moment to place in the case and use the same powder compression procedure as a full load.  The wads are inexpensive, easy to use, reduce the powder charge and at least in my Uberti 1873 Winchester gives good accuracy.

The part number for the equivalent wad used in a 38-40 is WAD-405-A , from Track of the Wolf.
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2018, 11:12:32 pm »

Big Lube bullets wouldn't have made 'squat' at the Little Big Horn. Custer and his crew met their demise due to poor planning and communication, Custer's zeal for glory, and most of all overwhelming numbers, ie Army vs Indians. I don't believe that it would have had made a difference either if all the Troopers had been armed with '73 Winchesters vs their Springfields, just probably delayed the inevitable. If a person studies and reads the 'true' and most reliable information about the battle and doesn't rely on what a lot of what has been written by those without accurate information and how movies and TV portray it, it can be seen what a military blunder it was. 'Moosemilk' filled bottles and swabs would have been useless too.

Now back to how this thread started, from what I've learned over the years using FF rather than FFF Black causes a little slower burn, thus not allowing as fast a pressure spike when the charge is ignited by cap or primer. Some time ago I went to using FF in my 44 Colt and 45 Colt loads vs using FFF at recommendation of some of the shooters here on CAS that had been loading metallic cases longer than I with black powder. I don't chorno my loads so can't tell you any velocity differences, but they seem a little less in the recoil department and are just as accurate. Supposed to be a little more TLC to the firearm also as I was told. The FF black has worked fine for me in the cartridge department of shooting.
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2018, 01:14:57 pm »

There are some Loons whom would consider odds of 14 to 1, a fair fight.  Only if you have unlimited Air Support and Artillery.  With a basic combat load-out of ammunition and no Gatling guns, Custer and his troops were going to run out of ammunition before running out of hostile targets.  The outcome was a foregone conclusion.  Oh, and yes.  Custer was STUPID.

Back to the OP.  PLUS ONE to Choker
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