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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Uberti Shallow Rifling 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Uberti Shallow Rifling  (Read 2693 times)
Coal Creek Griff
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« on: October 30, 2016, 05:06:31 pm »


I noticed when I slugged the bore of my Uberti 1876 carbine (see the other thread for the nightmare involved there), that the rifling seemed particularly shallow.  It slugged at .457, so I sized my cast bullets at .458.  I was disappointed at the accuracy of my first handloads.  I was only shooting at 45 yards, the maximum for my home shooting range.  A couple of shots would group together, but the others would be at the edge or off the targets.  I then tried some unsized bullets, which cast at .459 and the accuracy much improved. I shot two 5-shot groups to try it out.  One was 2.5" and the other was 1.5".  I'm a bit at the mercy of the sights; I suspect that the rifle/loads can do better.  Has anyone else encountered issues with shallow rifling in these guns?

On a separate topic, the loads also shoot about 7-8" high at that range, which is part of the sighting problem.  I ended up flipping up the ladder sight and sighting with the front sight just over the curve at the bottom of the ladder sight (with the sliding portion slid up and out of the way).  That made consistency a bit difficult, but put the bullets on the right bullseye.  I'm going to keep working on loads, but initial indications are that I will need a taller front sight.  Are those sights soldered in place?  I have no experience in working with solder on guns.  I've added brass beads to the top of iron sights with JB Weld, but it's kind of unsightly (no pun intended).  Any comments about resolving that issue?  Frankly, I don't do too much shooting at longer ranges; it's just so convenient to shoot a few steps away from my shop.  I tend to pick smaller targets and shoot at closer range.

CC Griff
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 10:43:53 pm »

The groove depth should not be a problem. The poor sights are. What alloy are you casting? Try harder or softer. probably harder unless you are shooting black powder. If you are shooting smokeless, powder position is important in that large case, try raising the muzzle before each shot. If that works you may need something to hold the powder against the primer. Try filler or 1/2 of a pure cotton, cotton ball.
Sounds like a higher front sight will do it for you. Loosen that small set screw and tap out the old sight from left to right.
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Coal Creek Griff
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2017, 12:30:50 am »

Wow!  Someone replied to my question!  I had actually forgotten that I asked it.

My alloy is range lead and I'm not sure of the BHN, but it has always worked for me with these rather low velocity guns.  I need to do further testing and I'm hoping that this weekend will provide the opportunity.

The gun is a carbine, so the front sight is different than a rifle sight. There is no set screw and it appears to be soldered in place. I just mounted a tang sight which has more adjustment range and it should help me test my loads.  I am a bit sorry to lose the original look of the sights, but it should make the gun more usable.

Thanks for the comments!

CC Griff
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2017, 05:30:43 pm »

All I know is my 45-75 does not shoot groups to my satisfaction and I too have been blaming the shallow rifling. It's to the point I'm thinking about having the barrel relined on a brand new gun. Does anyone know who can do this on a 45-75. I would like it to have rifling like the original Winchester 76's.

Honestly the more I play with these Uberti rifles I'm finding an original Winchester with even a mediocre bore will outshoot these new guns. The rifling is much deeper in the old guns.

I'm shooting black powder so that may compound the problem with the shallow rifling however I can't even get satisfactory groups with smokeless in my uberti 76.
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Coal Creek Griff
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2017, 08:06:23 pm »

Well, I did some testing with my Uberti 1876 carbine today.  I was shooting smokeless loads from a rest.  I was sighting in a Marble tang sight, so I started at only 25 yards.  From that distance, I got pretty small groups.  For one 5-shot group from that distance, four holes were touching (you had to look close to see that there were four) and one was just outside.  When I moved back to 45 yards (the maximum for my range), I started to get some vertical stringing.  That could be my fault or the barrel could have been heating up.  Windage was right on.  I'll do some more shooting, but that looked pretty good to me.  I think the .459 bullets made a difference.

CC Griff
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 04:02:29 am »

My 76 carbine in 45-60 shot so high out of the box i removed the sights and put a tang sight on it and a lyman tall front sight, it looks rubbish but at least it shoots onto the target now. A friend got the same gun at the same time and his was the same. Cant get it to shoot BP with any consistent groups so have given up BP.
It shoots very well with 298grn as cast from my lyman mould with 4759 which i have enough to see me out. I did cut my case short so i can crimp in the grove.

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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2017, 12:32:51 pm »

My 76 carbine in 45-60 shot so high out of the box i removed the sights and put a tang sight on it and a lyman tall front sight, it looks rubbish but at least it shoots onto the target now. A friend got the same gun at the same time and his was the same. Cant get it to shoot BP with any consistent groups so have given up BP.
It shoots very well with 298grn as cast from my lyman mould with 4759 which i have enough to see me out. I did cut my case short so i can crimp in the grove.

Mike-- Did you try a heavier bullet before changing the original sights out. Just curios, the 1876 is still on my short list that I am keeping an eye out for.
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Gaz from NZ
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2017, 10:45:13 pm »

Hi Guys
I thought I would just add to this post, to give moral support and to let you guys know you are not alone
While not glad you are having problems with your Uberti 1876 Carbines – I am glad it is not just me. I have had mine for nearly 1 year now, but as I do not get out to shoot it as much as I want, here is a condensed version of events (minus the swearing and vowing to give up) –
Yes, I also had to put a high front sight and tang sight
I slugged the bore and got around .456
Cast 300 grain plain base bullets in Lyman #2 alloy – came out at 290 grain
Sized to .457 and loaded with 55grains of Triple 7 - Speed is 1395 fps with standard dev of 10 fps
Great load, but the accuracy was rubbish.
Tried Black MZ and smokeless – The reduced smokeless load looked promising – so thought I would go down the reduced velocity road – with Black MZ and semolina

Well it was all a bit of a flop, as the below rundown shows – while not expecting sniper like groups, it was a bit of a bummer to say the least – So as a last ditch effort I thought I would do my original Triple 7 load with a jacket bullet (more money) – I was quite shocked at the time - a Ύ inch group

“At 50 yards”
290 grain FNPB cast
55 Grains Triple 7 – 1395 fps = 5.5-inch group
55 Grains Black MZ – 1427 fps = 6.0-inch group
24 Grains IMR 4198 / toilet paper – 1192 fps – 2.5-inch group
46 Grains Black MZ / 15 Grains Semolina – 1206 fps = 10.0-inch group

300 grain Hornady Jacket bullet
55 Grains Triple 7 – did not check speed = 0.75-inch group (as in Ύ”)

The whole time I was cursing my loads – turns out to be my plain base projectile – and, as you guys have said, that damn shallow rifling.
Unfortunately, it has turned from an expensive hobby to an obsession now – I will not give up (famous last words)

If the guys with the Marlin micro-groove barrels can get cast bullets to shoot, surely we can?
I have just ordered an RCBS 300grain, gas-check mould and .458 sizing die, from your side of the world – So when it arrives and I get organised, we will have another go –Let us know if anybody else has a break though, with black powder or subs – Good Luck, one and all

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kwilliams1876
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2017, 09:24:54 am »

coal creek
take a really close look at your muzzle crown. my 76 was so bad i took barrel off and re cut it in my lathe. it is my 3rd uberti product that had to be re cut! your .003 per side rifling depth is a bit light for lead bullets.....i know, been down that road. i expect my rifles to at least print a 3 inch 100 yd group........or else! my uberti '76 50-95 will do that, its rifling is .006+ deep .

best
kw
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matt45
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2017, 10:28:26 am »

If the jacketed bullet performed substantially better, the usual solution is to use a harder alloy- one might actually try buying some hard alloy cast bullets to see if it makes a difference.  If one is using B.P., generally a very soft alloy is best, and the bullet lube is critical.  I reckon we all know that reloading w/ B.P. is a whole different ball game.  In my experience, though, the shallow rifling is not the culprit, unless the bullet is leading the barrel.
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kwilliams1876
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2017, 01:08:12 pm »

yes you might get shallow rifling to work......maybe if you wipe after every shot, but who wants to do that with a lever gun? a review of the successful black powder guns of the 19th century will reveal few if any had .003 deep rifling. have a look at a ballard, trapdoor, sharps, rem. no. 1 sporter or a fine bore original '76...you get the idea. if you stay with lead, maybe a gas check with perform.....but that's a hassle, but it worked for me on a repro '76 with a scratch for rifling. i don't lack for a mold collection, including paper....sometimes you reach a point where its time to sell the thing to someone you thinks a 50 yard group is nirvana.  i am always chasing respectful 100 yd groups...........then there is the 200 yd quest with the lever gun!

aint it fun $$$
kw

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Gabriel Law
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2017, 02:27:10 pm »

Although Uberti's rifling may not be Winchester historically correct, it is what it is.  My rifle, in 45-60, has a bore diameter .450" and groove dia. of .457".  Right from the get-go, I was disappointed with the out of the box accuracy, but with perseverance, I am getting acceptable and fun shooting.  A lot of the credit for this I attribute to Silver Rings and Tom Horn, or this site.
My rifle felt like it had a tight spot in the middle of the barrel, and it leaded badly with a variety of alloys, bullets and powders.  But still, I could see some light at the end of the tunnel, and all this taught me how to thoroughly clean my bore.
These first couple of targets I present, shot in the fall of 2014, showed that the rifle had some promise, so I persisted.


This target was shot with 14 gr. Trail Boss and BACo's 300 gr. bullet, in this case from re-claimed .22 cal lead.  It leaded the bore and subsequent targets's accuracy diminished.



This target was shot later the same month using 41.5 gr. IMR 3031, and the same bullet as the target above.  Again, first target fine, and leading ruined the following shooting.



This target was shot using Lyman 457122 in a fairly hard alloy and 14 gr. Herco powder.  Same result as other targets, but serious leading ruined everything to follow.



This target used the 300 gr. Lazer Cast bullets and 14 gr. of Herco.  These bullets are super hard, and though they produced a nice group from a clean rifle, the groups thereafter were poor and worse.  
So far there is consistently good groups from a clean rifle and because of leading in the bore, things go in the toilet in a hurry.  Advise from Tom Horn has made a big difference.  I fire lapped the bore using pure lead 300 gr. slugs a light charge of powder and Wheeller Engineering lapping compound.  This consists of three grits of grease lapping compound impregnated into the lead by rolling on a glass plate with a steel plate.  I loaded 25 each of course, medium and fine grits and shot them slowly but without cleaning for the entire exercise.  I then cleaned the bore thoroughly, and finished by polishing with JB Bore paste.  When this was finally cleaned away, I had a noticeable smoother and polished bore.
My next test used up the last of those pure lead bullets lubed with SPG over 14 gr. Trail Boss.  All this shooting was at 50 meters in pleasant winter conditions, and the rifle carried the Montana Vintage Arms mid-range aperture Soule rear sight and a MVA low profile globe front sight with an aperture insert.  Shooting was from a bench.  Here's the result on targets...


Target shot with 300 gr. BACo 457300 pure lead bullets lubed with SPG over 14 gr. Trail Boss.



Same load.  Now, after a session of 30 - 40 rounds, fouling pushes out with two dry patches and there is only a little dust for lead in the bore.  I still clean the rifle the same way, first with solvent, then dry patches, and polish with 'lead free' patches and JB Bore Paste.  I think the better the bore is, the better the accuracy will be.  Now I can confidently hit a 12" disc every time offhand at 100 meters.

But I'm certainly not finished in this accuracy quest yet!  I want to try paper patched bullets in my '86 next...

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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2017, 09:47:04 pm »

Can a Uberti 45-75 be relined with decent rifling like an original 76? and if so who can do this?

I have one that shoots like crap and since I custom ordered it, it really makes me mad but I would be willing to have it relined if someone can do it. I'm convinced it's the crappy shallow rifling and I really want to shoot black powder in the 45-75.

My 130 year old original 45-75 still has deeper rifling than the Uberti.
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2017, 01:14:10 am »

Interesting comments and testing reports,  gents. I need to study Gabriel Law's notes in more detail.   It's a different caliber,  but I suspect that principles will transfer.  Fortunately I haven't had leading issues at this point and I haven't detected any tight spots in my bore.

I have too many projects going at once and I haven't had my carbine out since the last time I posted on this topic.  I felt that there was potential to be exploited, but I'm not sure. I would think that a reline would be possible, although I've never heard of relining a Uberti. I'm still hoping for a plain-base lead bullet solution, although that may require lowering my expectations...

CC Griff
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2017, 08:22:23 am »

Being curious here . How deep or shallow are the grooves in the Uberti 76 rifling ? I ask because I have been following the thread with interest. The original Winchester rifling has been referred to here as deeper than the Uberti. The few original 1876 Winchester barrels  that I have slugged none are like new!  But a few are very respectable and are close to what they were new except for some slight pitting. The .45 cal. barrels average about 0.003 deep per side  . The .40 cal barrels seem to be a bit more shallow about 0.002+ deep per side. In other words bore of 0.400 and groove 0.405+ . I will say this the pitted rough bores do better with harder bullets and require more attention to wiping. Part of the cost of shooting bp. in old bores, I guess. The old bores that shoot the best have a choked muzzle end / smaller measurement at muzzle than chamber side.  I have noticed this on many old originals. I bring this up  because I did not see mention to the Uberti bores being choked a bit  , or at all. Hope this helps Sorry had to go back and correct my decimal  marks . ,,,DT
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Gabriel Law
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2017, 12:14:32 pm »

I detect no choking in the barrel of my Uberti 1876 45-60.  The groove depth in my rifle is .457" - or .0035" groove depth.  I think that is pretty standard for a .45 cal cartridge rifle....not shallow.  In contrast, my 1874 Shiloh Sharps serial number 3004 in 45 x 3 1/4" (45-120) has a groove depth of about .0015".  It performed well with jacketed bullets, either paper or copper.  It also shot well with 550 gr. grease groove bullets.  Now, that is shallow!
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2017, 10:44:26 pm »

Being curious here . How deep or shallow are the grooves in the Uberti 76 rifling ? I ask because I have been following the thread with interest. The original Winchester rifling has been referred to here as deeper than the Uberti. The few original 1876 Winchester barrels  that I have slugged none are like new!  But a few are very respectable and are close to what they were new except for some slight pitting. The .45 cal. barrels average about 0.003 deep per side  . The .40 cal barrels seem to be a bit more shallow about 0.002+ deep per side. In other words bore of 0.400 and groove 0.405+ . I will say this the pitted rough bores do better with harder bullets and require more attention to wiping. Part of the cost of shooting bp. in old bores, I guess. The old bores that shoot the best have a choked muzzle end / smaller measurement at muzzle than chamber side.  I have noticed this on many old originals. I bring this up  because I did not see mention to the Uberti bores being choked a bit  , or at all. Hope this helps Sorry had to go back and correct my decimal  marks . ,,,DT

.003 is about what my Uberti is, if I recall its .450-.456

I'll have to slug my original 45-75 but it sure does look like it's much deeper. It's bore isn't bad for it's age but far from new.

So if it's not the depth and the crown looks fine, what makes the Ubertis not shoot worth crap compared to the original with black powder? I would love to know because I can't figure it out. I've tried different bullets, powder, primers, and charges. There is really only so much different stuff to try with black powder.

I've had people say well it's not going to be a tack driver due to what it is, but my response is how come the original shoots so much better?

This is also true with the 73's in 44-40. I'm somewhat blaming the ROT on the new Ubertis on the 44-40's because I have some older Navy Arms imports with the slower rate of twist that will far outshoot the current production Uberti 73's.....but the 45-75 seems to have the same rate of twist as the original.
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2017, 06:31:14 am »

Cliff this has me scratching my head.  I'm with you a new 45/75 wcf barrel should drive tacks no matter if its on a 76 Winchester or a Sharps . Have you shot jacketed bullets through it? And if so , does it shoot them accurate? My only guess would be the bullet is the problem , and i'm sure you have tested more than one type and size.  Have an old 76 in 45/60 that would not do better than 4" at 50yd. Loaded some jacketed remington bullets in the same load that gave the 4" groups . One ragged hole at 50yd.  Shot almost 100 of these loads through it. Ran out of the jacketed bullets , so went back to the lead bullet mould and ran some with WW material on the (Hot) side got a bit frosted and loaded them up. Bingo it started shooting as good as I could hold. Was it the jacketed bullets burnishing the bore? Or the WW bullets being a bit frosted and hard? Go figure ! Good luck finding the secret to your rifle,,DT
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2017, 07:42:58 am »

dusty, no I have not tried jacketed bullets but I have tried some hard cast and some smokeless loads. Problem is there is just no load data for jacketed bullets or smokeless in general so I'm trusting what someone else has said. Smokeless scares the heck out of me if I don't have pressure tested load data.

I have been told by some others to try burnishing the bore with jacketed bullets so I will have to look into some load data some more.

Thing is I bet my original 76 has never had a jacketed bullet through it and possibly never anything but black powder.

I can't get my Uberti to shoot any better than 5-6 inch groups at 50yards and that's even after installing MVA mid range sights and a front globe. I don't claim to be an expert marksman but I can do better than that with other guns with just the regular open sights so I know it's the gun.

IMO the Uberti is not even accurate enough to deer hunt with in the woods.
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2017, 08:57:58 am »

Can't set still for this chatter.  I have a '76 in 45-75 with the deeper chamber and it shoots just fine.  I was able to get data off an original box of 45-75 ammo and on that box was the instructions for casting bullets. The factory said to use lead that was/is cast from 16:1 alloy.  I make my own alloy and that is what I use and have no complaints.  I have shot Hornady jacketed 300 grain soft points and again no complaints.  Maybe I got a good rifle--who knows!  I have shot BACO bullets and again no complaints except as is with the case with the Hornady slugs--PRICE!  About all I can say is to keep trying and somewhere you will find that rifle of yours will like a particular load.  Just don't give up in frustration as  these rifles are like women --very fussy!  I think that I went through 20-30 different powders and loads before my rifle found a couple that it likes.  So hang in there and don't give up.  I got a M-92 in 32-20 that the bore looks worse than the inside of a sewer pipe and it dont shoot lead for sour owl crap but jacketed bullets I can drive tacks with it so each (rifle) to its own.
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2017, 09:42:44 am »

I won't be trying 20-30 different powders. Honestly if it won't shoot lead and black powder it aint worth owning IMO. That's what the rifle and the cartridge were designed for.

If I can find a safe suitable load for some jacketed bullets I'll try that just to see what happens. Honestly if mine was not a beautiful custom order with my name as a serial# I would have done pawned it off. What I paid for the thing would have went a long way towards another nice original 76.

Mine is beautiful to look at but as you say, it is about like a woman, looks can be deceiving.
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2017, 11:48:09 am »

Cliff............
"I won't be trying 20-30 different powders. Honestly if it won't shoot lead and black powder it aint worth owning IMO. That's what the rifle and the cartridge were designed for."
  I concur exactly..........I have sent several of the repro's packing! the guns are not cheap and my tolerance level for poor performance is short. Black powder and lead.............as they where meant to shoot. I wonder if Uberti ever reads these forums??

all the best
kw
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2017, 06:36:46 pm »

Well, the two that I settled on are 76 grains of Swiss 1½ and 22 grains of 2400.  I did have very good results with the 300 grain Hornady jacked soft point and 22.0 grains of 2400 but the lead bullet I use is a 350 grain Hoch custom mold so it is not a "run-of-the-mill" type mold. So anyway I guess my rifle does what I expect of it.
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2017, 07:58:10 pm »

I have not had as good results using the 350 gr. bullet compared to the 300, which is what the cartridge and rifle was designed for.  The heavier bullet may not be stabilized by the Uberti's rifling twist.  The 45-75 likes the heavier bullets though.
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2017, 09:51:20 am »

If you are shooting Black Powder:
     Get the book by J.S. and Pat Wolf.  Granted, it is about the trapdoor, but the principles apply to the modern Uberti (at least in 45-60).  At least drill the flash-holes- for me, this is the #1 thing to make B.P. shoot better in all the cartridges I've tried.
     If you are shooting smokeless, there is no need to re-invent the wheel.  The loading threads on this board are enough to get a person through about anything.  If you want a different source, the book by Ken waters should still be available.
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