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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  STORM (Moderators: RRio, Major 2)  |  Topic: .44 Special or .44 Russian cylinder... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: .44 Special or .44 Russian cylinder...  (Read 2440 times)
flatapple
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« on: July 04, 2016, 10:19:34 am »


I have a brand new never been shot 1872 open top navy 7.5 barrel in .44 Special.  Upon going to my range to shoot the first shots my open top cylinder will no turn!  There are rub marks on the brass of my reloads.  Once back at my workbench I try another box of reloads and the cylinder will turn.  I then try to insert some new Remington nickel plated .44 Special brass and the brass will not go completely into the cylinder, I try a few new Starline nickel plated brass with the same result!  Now I try 5 different factory loaded .44 Special and all work but one.  One last try...I insert my new .44 Russian brass and all is well, they fit in the cylinder and turn with ease!  Any ideas of what is going on...help.
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BOSS #217
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2016, 11:26:41 am »

Welcome to the precision manufacturing of Uberti firearms.

From my experience, I would say that the cylinder chambers are cut to 44 colt dimensions not 44 special dimensions.  Is the frame stamped "44 Colt" ? Despite what is said, all 44's are not equal in cartridge/brass dimensions.  Case length, diameter and base thickness differ slightly between each manufacturer.

I bought a consecutive pair of 1872's.  One will shoot 44 special black powder cartridges with no problems ever.  The other one will not reliably shoot anything.  I would suggest you load some 44 Russian rounds and if you have no issues then stick with that.

You could have the cylinder rechambered to 44 Special dimensions.

You could trim your 44 Special brass to the 44 Russian length, but if you have Russian brass and you find they work then that would be the way to go.

Make sure your reloaded cartridges are within accepted dimensions. 

Have you measured the differences between the factory ammunition that fits and the ones that don't?

Good Luck, CR
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 12:19:56 pm »

PILING ON HERE.
Yep.  Dollars to donuts the chambers are "chambered" for 44 Colt.  There are lots and lots of thing you can do.  But, I suggest keeping
it simple.  Switch to 44 Russian brass and don't give it another thought.

Coffinmaker
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flatapple
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 12:28:54 pm »

Thanks for fast replies!  I respect both your replies and will go with the .44 Russian.  Now I need to order a set of dies.  Thanks again.
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Long Johns Wolf
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 01:09:30 pm »

Where on the empties are the rub marks?
I used to be the first owner of a Uberti 72 from 2002 production in .44 Colt cal.
After some shooting of Starline factory ammo I had problems turning the cylinder and the cartridges had rub marks.
The issue turned out to be the loading gate screw. It had turned loose a mite from recoil.
Easy fix.
Long Johns Wolf
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Blair
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 01:17:04 pm »

One other issue maybe in that the .44 R and .44 Sp. have slightly larger rim diameters than the .44 Colt.
Just a thought on my part.
My best,
 Blair
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Abilene
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 02:46:12 pm »

The problem with the loading gate screw backing out on the OT's mentioned by Long Johns Wolf continues to be an intermittent issue.  However, Flatapple mentioned some new brass not being able to drop all the way into the cylinder.  I have seen some 44 Colt cylinders that "almost" would chamber 44 spcl, in fact some would chamber and some would not depending on the shape of the bullet and the crimp.  These days, even the guns marked 44 Colt are supposed to have the same cylinders as 44 Spcl marked guns.  How old is your OT?  And even if recent manufacture, it could have an older cylinder.  If your gun is a Cimarron, you should be able to mail them the cylinder and have it reamed out to 44 Spcl, they have the hand reamer at the workbench.  I used to do it when the only OT in stock was a .44 Colt but the customer wanted a .44 Spcl.
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Gus Walker
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 02:51:57 pm »

I had the same problem on a Cimmaron 72 in 38 special... It was the loding gate screw also... Plus a little burr on the gate itself.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 10:27:19 pm »

While still a practicing Gunplumber, I became by default, the local Open Top specialist.  Fame, believe me, is a fickle mistress.  But I
digress.
Based on the descriptions from the OP, while the gate screw can be a problem (easy fix), and the gate itself a problem (easy fix), the
chambers are the obvious culprit.  As mentioned by Abilene, the chambers in Open Top cylinders, for .44, are only correct by accident.
While suppose to be of a single dimension, rotz of ruck.  Seldom are they correct.  I've personally had two sets of 44 Open Tops, when
I was shooting them as my Main Match guns.  Of four, only one would actually chamber a 44 Special.

The cylinders are initially machined to run 44 Special cases, so the specific rim diameter and thickness are not at issue.  It's all in the
depth of the chamber and where the throat begins.  I still have my chamber reamer (now dull) for "adjusting" 44 chambers.
 
Since the Open Top was originally chambered in a proprietary rimfire cartridge by Colt (near duplicate of the 44 Henry Flat) I always
suggested to my customers to forego chamber reaming and just go with a round much closer to the original chambering, the 44
Russian.  Easy to load for with smokeless and a dandy BP cartridge.  Pick up box (500) cases from Starline (Midway) and your set
forever.

Coffinmaker
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Crow Choker
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2016, 10:47:39 am »

Sounds like it could be a cylinder problem. When I bought my Cimarron Open Top Army frame in 2008 I wanted it in 44 Special to match a purchase of a 44 Spec caliber Win Model 66. I was told by Cimarron (telephone) that all of the 44 Spec OT's were stamped 44 Colt on the frame due to the fact that some shooters wanted to shoot 44 Spec, but didn't want a revolver with a 44 Spec marking (to satisfy the period correct crowd). My OT is chambered 44 Spec, but marked 44 Colt. A year later (2009) I purchased a Richards II from Cimarron in 44 Spec and it is marked 44 Spec. I was told by Cimarron that they stopped the practice of chambering in 44 Spec, but having the frames stamped 44 Colt sometime after 2008. I sent the first OT back to Cimarron due to a poor rear sight and poor metal/metal fit on the frame/trigger guard. The replacement was a beauty, but after two shots the cylinder would lock up shooting both 44 Colt and 44 Specials. Found that a burr around the 7 o'clock position on the recoil shield was causing a drag on the fired brass's rims. Some stoning cured that and it runs like a charm since. Shoot 44 Colts using black powder in both revolvers most of the time anymore.

 As Abilene asked of the age, maybe its a hold over from the 'old days' and had the wrong cylinder put on it by the 'boys' at the factory. If it is a newer production piece, possibly they put a 44 Colt cylinder on a gun that was supposed to be 44 Special as they offer OT's in 44 Colt or 44 Special.  The later would make a lot of sense if it is a newer gun off the assembly line. Maybe as Coffinmaker penned ya got a cylinder that didn't get reamed right at the factory. Abilene did state that Uberti now sort of installs a generic 44 caliber cylinder (able to fire 44 Russ, 44 Colt, and 44 Spec) on their OT's  regardless of what the frame is marked. Uberti and Cimarrons web-sites indicate specific or combination calibers for their OT's and conversion revolvers. How Uberti and Cimarron handle this game of 'musical chairs' with their products isn't always told to the consumer. Taylors only offer the same type of Uberti revolvers in 38 Spec and 45 Colt.  If it were mine I'd be contacting whoever I bought it from and/or the importer.     
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2016, 01:15:53 pm »

Here be part of the scoop.  Uberti has parts.  Tons of em.  If Louigi hasn't assembled an Open Top in a while, He may well have a pile
of "ancient" (relative) parts in his bin.  Then this Open Top comes to his station.  He grabs Open Top parts a starts to put it together.
ANY open top parts.  New parts, old parts, doesn't matter.  Parts is parts.  Made em fit.  At's what a hammer is for.  A 44 is a 44 is a
44.  The hole is the right size on the bullet end.  Presto.  You get the cylinder.  Just the way it is.  Not personal, just business.  Look
at the Open Top guns from Uberti as ....... "KITS" ....... real pretty "Kits."  Intended to give you something to do on a cold winter's
knight.  Enjoy.

Coffinmaker
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Rooster Ron Wayne
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 06:24:15 pm »

My Open Top 44 specials did the same thing .
Turned out that the cylinders was cut to 44 Colt and the barrels was marked 44 special.
I had to have the Cylinders cut 25k deeper to fit 44 specials .
Problem fixed .
Thanks Long Hunters gunsmiths .
Just sayin
Rooster
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