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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Shooter's Meeting (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Camille Eonich)  |  Topic: Easy things Uberti could do 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Easy things Uberti could do  (Read 2935 times)
Galloway
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« on: July 03, 2016, 02:33:54 pm »


Just for fun I thought I'd make list of things Uberti could change on some of their guns that wouldn't be all that difficult. I'd like to hear yours as well.

1. Offer round barrel 24'' 73 winchesters

2. Offer Blue finish 24'' 73 winchesters

3. Change the 73 carbine barrel length to 20''

4. Chamber the Henry and 1866 model in 44 special or modern 44 colt

5. Offer imitation gutta perch grips on the bisley and some 1873 revolvers

6. Offer the 1858 revolving carbine with 24 or 26'' barrel like originals

7. Remove the cylider release cross pin on the 1875 remington frame

8. Offer an all blue 1875 remington revolver

9. Offer a 36/38 caliber remington navy conversion

10. Quit the blue screws on nickel guns already, at least for a few years!

11. Offer an all blue reciever iorn frame henry again

12. Offer a 6'' 1849 pocket

13. Loose the hammer safety on 1873 revolvers.

14. Offer a straight forestock on the 1874 sharps like the carbine version

Just some thoughts lets hear yours pards!
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Scattered Thumbs
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 03:42:19 pm »

Totally agree.

And add.

15. Make a S & W Russian with the right underbarrel profile instead of using the Schofield's.

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Poodleshooter
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2016, 04:42:04 pm »

Really like #5.
#13 I think is due to import points. Cimarron adds the no-safety hammer or retrofits them I think. All of the Taylors I've found use the safety hammer.
I buy Taylors old models, and get the no-safety hammer to retrofit them (along with a crescent ejector to give it a good post 1880, pre 1894 feel).

Mine is strange: I really would like an 1851 navy colt with a .358" bore, chambered for .38 Special with a swappable R&D type cylinder, and a percussion cylinder that I can shoot with .36" roundball/OOO buck. Basically, a more reloader friendly .36 conversion that avoids the need for hollow base or outside lubed bullet reloading that a .375/.380 bore requires.
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Abilene
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2016, 05:24:19 pm »

...
4. Chamber the Henry and 1866 model in 44 special or modern 44 colt

5. Offer imitation gutta perch grips on the bisley and some 1873 revolvers
...
7. Remove the cylider release cross pin on the 1875 remington frame
...
9. Offer a 36/38 caliber remington navy conversion

10. Quit the blue screws on nickel guns already, at least for a few years!
...
13. Loose the hammer safety on 1873 revolvers.
...

A few comments:
4. Although only a handful of 44 Spcl Henries were made (and yeah, I want one too  Smiley ), the 44 Spcl 1866 has been available since 2000 and Cimarron almost always has them in stock (only 19" and 24" at the moment).
5. Vintage industries makes a grip like this, see http://www.vintagegungrips.net/ao-c68.html and click the tiny picture to see a larger image.  I have one of these on a Cimarron BP-frame 44wcf.  It reminds me very much of the grips on my 3rd Gen Colts, except these are one-piece and the logo at the top is the Cimarron rider versus the Rampant Colt.
7. Mike Harvey has asked Uberti to go back to the (correct) way they did the cylinder pin release on their early 1875 models, but they refuse.  Don't know why.
9. Are you talking about the 1858 conversion?  That is made in .38 Spcl
10. I guess I didn't know Uberti was using all charcoal blue screws these days on their nickle guns.  Except for a few select guns imported in nickle, Cimarron sends guns to Ford Plating if a customer wants them nickled, and screw finish is their choice.
13. The Cimarron Model P's do all come from Uberti with the standard hammer, while the Cattleman imported by others has the safety hammer.  Although the premium Taylors guns like the Smokewagon and Running Iron do have the standard hammer.  I'm sort of afraid Uberti may force all importers to accept their new hammer design with firing pin that pushes back into the hammer unless the trigger is pulled.  I personally do not care for them, even though it allows for safe carry of 6.

My addition to the list: on the 1860 Richards-Mason and Type II Richards conversions in .38 Spcl, use the rebated cylinder and stepped frame instead of using a '51 R-M frame and cylinder on those models.  Even though the caliber is "wrong" for those, at least they would look correct.




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Galloway
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2016, 07:24:54 pm »

Great info Abilene thanks!
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Fingers McGee
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2016, 10:51:22 pm »

I have only one request, make the Colt replicas in Stainless Steel again.  This time adding the Dragoons, Paterson and Walker.
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2016, 11:22:02 pm »

I have only one request, make the Colt replicas in Stainless Steel again.  This time adding the Dragoons, Paterson and Walker.

But then they would be too easy to find and what would be the fun of that chase?  Grin
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River City John
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 08:33:20 am »

Go back to offering the Leech & Rigdon with plain cylinder, rather than using roll-engraved Colt 1851 cylinders.



RCJ
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 09:54:02 am »

How about...

16. Offer the Richards 1st model along side the type II.

17. Put the lanyard ring on the 1875 as well as the 1890.

18. Offer the 1st model or Old, Old model Russian.

First two should be easy, the last really shouldn't be that hard. Grin
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St. George
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 10:14:47 am »

The C&WAS market is exceptionally small, when compared to other shooting sports - it's more of a niche market.

They won't make new, nor modify old on a whim - they 'need' to 'know' that whatever new design they field will definitely sell, and C&WAS isn't a guaranteed sale - not by a long shot.

Every shooter wants this and that - and the replica makers can build them - they just won't for a relative handful of guys who want Colt SAAs for Ruger Vaquero prices sold at a big box 'door-buster' sale.

The Italians see the longer picture that the shooters don't, and that's the eventual demise of the C&WAS - a slow death that's been moving at a glacial pace, but moving, so adding to their sales line as this happens isn't in their best financial interest.

Scouts Out!
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Galloway
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2016, 11:10:59 am »

ST. George,

I agree but many of these changes would cost very little, and some would probably save them money. Also I doubt some of these configurations are based on sales and might just be from routine. Historical Accuracy IS the name of their game and what they try to do. With the changes I mentioned I could start a whole new collection because I am the guy in their niche market. Dont you think that would interest them?
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2016, 11:23:45 am »

Ah POOP!!  St George beat me to the draw.

But, waddahay ........  Pile ON!!

Unfortunately, CAS/WAS is a small niche market (as St. George mentioned)  The CAS/WAS market is NOT growing.  The CAS/WAS game
is slowly imploding (as St. George mentions).  Any Doubt??  Go attend a good match.  With just a few exceptions, the participants are
OLD GUYS!!  Don't look now, but CAS is dying.  Molasses slow, but ... sadly going DoDo.

None of the manufacturers of CAS/WAS guns is going to tool up for a limited run of something when there are only a few willing to part
with the folding money for the special item.  Heck, I've for years yearned for a Replica Richards Type 1, in Stainless.  I DO NOT hold
my breath.

Based on current trends, and the draw-down production (Yes the sell all they produce - they produce less and less) schedules for CAS/WAS
hardware, don't hole your breath for an item that doesn't appeal to the entire CAS market.  Won't happen.  There may be some limited
production items, per request of a specific importer, but no real earth shaking "new" stuff.

Coffinmaker

PS:  I could be wrong.  Been wrong before.  Will be again, probably.  Not holding my breath (already said that).
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2016, 11:35:32 am »

Galloway,,

Hate to burst yer bubble.  But ...... Historical Accuracy has NEVER been the name of the game for any of makers of reproduction type
19th century firearms.  The name of the game is and always has been to MAKE MONEY.  They (Uberti - Pietta) make money by
making firearms.  Those reproductions they make are made to a simple standard.  "Looks good from three Feet."  NONE of the
reproductions are completely correct.  Currently, the closest in dimension to the original sample example is the Pietta GW II.  Uberti
does some fine roll stamping, but the dimensions are ....... off.

I'm not St. George, didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express (that I admit to), but in answer to your last question .... NO.  Their collectively
not interested in an even smaller niche market.  Short run, at an Importers request, one time good deal .. Yes.  Continuously available
production of a tiny interest item .... NOT HARDLY. (quoth da Duke).

Coffinmaker 
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Blair
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2016, 01:09:11 pm »

Seems to me, that as long as we in SASS, C/WAS and NCOWS keep on buying the un-authentic garbage they manufactures and are passing off on us, we are giving them the signal that it is OK.
They have no reason to change from their normal manufacturing status.
If SASS, C/WAS and NCOWS are going by the way of the Dodo, its because "WE" keep shooting ourselves in our on foot by accepting the garbage that is offer to us by buying it!
My best,
 Blair
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Galloway
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2016, 01:32:25 pm »

Coffinmaker the changes I'm speaking of would in no way affect their general sales, they would only broaden them by including a few minor features that appeal to people like me. Many wouldn't even notice them. I'm not saying introduce a evans replica, and this isn't a whats your dream replica thread. I'm saying i have 3 1873 win and would buy a 4th if they offered a round barrel 24''. And like you stated and I agree with, they want to make money.
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Abilene
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2016, 02:27:38 pm »

Seems to me, that as long as we in SASS, C/WAS and NCOWS keep on buying the un-authentic garbage they manufactures and are passing off on us, we are giving them the signal that it is OK....

Unauthenic garbage?  I'd say that's a bit strong.  Hmm, well yeah Pietta makes some crazy frankenguns.  Uberti makes some but a few less.  For the most part, I think Uberti is doing a pretty good job on authenticity, though never perfect.  Some of the sizes are a few thousandths oversize, but almost no one would be able to tell the difference.  USFA's are oversize, but everyone touts them.  Piettas are copies of 2nd gen colts and while parts may exchange, they are still working on the markings (they are improving).   My '51' Richards-Masons do not have a conversion ring that shrouds the front of the "recoil shield", but that is pretty minor.  Uberti's bread and butter, the SAA's, used to be horribly wrong.  There is a youtube video of Mike Harvey talking about all the changes he had Uberti do to make them more authentic.  On some guns, particularly newly introduced guns (all the OT's and conversions for example), some new tooling was required to be paid for by the importer.  Yeah, they are a few thousandths oversize to allow for .45 chamberings, but most people would never notice this, as most people have never handled, much less shot, originals of those guns.

And while the huge growth of CAS is long past, non-CAS interest in these old styles remains strong.  Factories are still running at or near max capacity.  And therein lies another use of the word "garbage".  I think that in general the quality (fit and finish) of all the imports has suffered in recent years, as they rush to meet demand.   I dont' think the quality or authenticity of guns available has anything to do with slowing of CAS , but similarly to what Blair mentioned, if we accept the lower quality they won't do anything to improve that.  I know that Cimarron relays quality concerns to the Italians, but there is so much involved in all this business that mostly only the top issues get addressed.   The economy sucks everywhere so I agree new designs are unlikely.  But some of the changes mentioned really would be pretty easy to do.

IMHO, of course.
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Blair
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2016, 03:40:13 pm »

Abilene,

Not harsh at all when you look at the brass frame revolvers, that were never produced. Or the 1851's chambered in .44 cal. cap and ball.
Much of what the Italians produce is pretty good stuff on the whole.
However, don't tell me I am buying an 1862 Pocket Navy or Pocket Police when it is an 1861 Navy! Or that I am buying a New Model #3 S&W when it is a modified #3, Third Model that has been modified.
These are the type of things that could be "Easily" corrected... but wont as long as "WE" keep buying the garbage.
Keep in mind, "WE" are the ones that are suppose to know about American made/used firearms.
I did this kind of work with Pedersoil when they were working up reintroducing their new version of the Enfield from the Euroarms buyout. They were very open minded to the suggestions I had to offer.
My best,
 Blair
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 03:41:42 pm »

From memory the early guns that I owned in the late seventies and early eighties were closer to the origanals.
Round barreled 73 would be great and the Henry in 44 colt would be a real dream.
How about making available some frame at  reasonable price, the 44 sp barrel should be easy as all that is different is the chamber
Make the SAA like the ASM guns with correct grip shape.

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Buffalochip
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 03:47:45 pm »

Blair
correct, stop buying incorrect replicas. My pet hate is short stroke and coil springs. There is nothing wrong with polishing and smooting a action.
There are people out there who like and will buy the crap made and belive it is correct. Huh
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Buffalochip
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 04:55:51 pm »

Abilene,

Not harsh at all when you look at the brass frame revolvers, that were never produced. Or the 1851's chambered in .44 cal. cap and ball....

Yes, the Pietta Frankenguns.   Smiley  I think that the people who buy those don't particularly know or care about authenticity, and at least Pietta DOES make the correct versions of those guns as well.

Mike, I agree about the short stroke guns.  Wish SASS had never allowed them in the first place.  I know the users of them love them, but in the beginning CAS was supposed to NOT be a race-gun sport.  Too late!  I'm not sure which coil springs you are talking about, I do like coils for the hand springs.  Totally hidden, very reliable.  And regarding the .44 Colt/Special Henry, those can be fairly easily had by simply buying a 44-40 and having the chamber sleeved.
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Abilene
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 04:57:35 pm »

Yes, the Pietta Frankenguns.   Smiley  I think that the people who buy those don't particularly know and/or care about authenticity, and at least Pietta DOES make the correct versions of those guns as well.

Mike, I agree about the short stroke guns.  Wish SASS had never allowed them in the first place.  I know the users of them love them, but in the beginning CAS was supposed to NOT be a race-gun sport.  Too late!  I'm not sure which coil springs you are talking about, I do like coils for the hand springs.  Totally hidden, very reliable.  And regarding the .44 Colt/Special Henry, those can be fairly easily had by simply buying a 44-40 and having the chamber sleeved.
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Mike
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 10:04:58 pm »

Hand spring, coil with plunger. I like the guns as built.😊  if I wanted a race gun I would shoot the Glocks and 1911.
I been shooting these replicas since 1977 with both black and tne other stuff had origanals as well.
The new string of guns just dont do anything for me. The Steel Henry I got this year is well dont get me started. Rubber end to the brass follower if you dont know how to load the gun properly dont buy one.

 Huh
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Buffalochip
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2016, 07:59:43 am »

While I agree that the CAS market is shrinking, and that they'll never produce the old model Russian (even tho' we've been asking for it since the Schofield first came out), I can't see the problem with offering the 1875 in a blue finish with lanyard ring. Heck they already offer the 1890 that way, just use the same frame for the 1875 and you'd save money from making the same frame two different ways. Now if they could also offer an aftermarket replacement hammer for the 1875/90 without the safety on it (I know, I know...lawyers) we could make them as near perfect as possible.
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Mike
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2016, 02:58:57 pm »

I have never had one of the safty hammers that worked.

I you want a blued frame 75 order a in white gun and get it blued, you will end up with a better finished product I am guessing.
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Buffalochip
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2016, 04:28:55 pm »

I have never had one of the safty hammers that worked.

I you want a blued frame 75 order a in white gun and get it blued, you will end up with a better finished product I am guessing.

Don't forget the loading gate remains color case hardened.
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