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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Shotguns  |  Topic: 12Ga All Brass Hulls - 10Ga Plastic Wads >> REPORT !! LATEST RE-REPORT 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 12Ga All Brass Hulls - 10Ga Plastic Wads >> REPORT !! LATEST RE-REPORT  (Read 6900 times)
Coffinmaker
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« on: June 21, 2016, 09:27:47 pm »


OK.  I'll bite. Been following a thread on another forum.  
Anybody here tried 10Ga plastic wads in 12Ga All Brass hulls in a 12Ga Double??  I wanna see how it will work.  Or, if it will work well.
It would eliminate the Over Powder wad and the Cushion wad.  Capped with the over shot card.
What say youz guyz??

Coffinmaker
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Mean Bob Mean
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 01:50:41 pm »

OK.  I'll bite. Been following a thread on another forum. 
Anybody here tried 10Ga plastic wads in 12Ga All Brass hulls in a 12Ga Double??  I wanna see how it will work.  Or, if it will work well.
It would eliminate the Over Powder wad and the Cushion wad.  Capped with the over shot card.
What say youz guyz??

Coffinmaker

I have been wondering about trying this.  My concern is cleaning melted plastic outta the brass hulls.  Could it be more work than it saves by using them?
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"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
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Lefty Dude
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 02:43:50 pm »

This thought crossed my mind Years ago, when I was just starting to play with the all Brass shells. I never got around to the trial & error stage. I found a loading method that worked and I still load the same today.
My column is this; 45-50 gr's of Goex 3F, followed by a Circle fly 11 ga. 1/8" OPC. Then a CF 1/2 non lubed cushion wad is installed. The final wad is a 12 ga. plastic wad, non compressed and used full length to house the shot. This wad is apprx. 1.3" in total length. A short 1 oz. plastic wad. The 1 oz of shot is placed in the cup. The cover is a CF 10 ga. OSC.
This column length is with in 1/8" from the case mouth.

I do get some plastic snot strings in my barrels from the plastic wads. To clean I remove the barrel from the action, cork the barrel ends. Then pour boiling water in the breach-end, letting it sit for 20 minutes. Uncork the barrels and out comes the black strings of plastic.

Back to the 10 ga. plastic wads; My trials with 10 ga. cushion wads leads me to believe that by compressing the wad in the thin brass case will lead to excessive case expansion. The RMC cases are thicker and can be used with compressed wads and are made for such.
I was gifted a bag of CF 10 ga. Cushion wads, and used a few, after fighting to get them in the cases, my experience says 11 ga. is best.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2016, 08:19:40 pm »

I've already acquired a bag of 10Ga Plastic wads.  these slide into a 12 Brass hull easily.  I do expect "snake skin" in the bore after shooting
but I don't think there wall be any real deposit in the hull itself. 

I have also had some good luck with Lefty's basic stack.  Powder, Over Powder Wad, 1/2 inch cushion wad and now a plastic 12Ga
Shot Cup made from a 12Ga wad.  Better patterns.  I want even better, and to eliminate the gooey wads and promote faster reloading
of the hulls.  I would think the powder burn would soften the 10Ga wad for an easy trop thru the bore. 

Stay Tuna!!

Coffinmaker
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Abilene
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 09:59:05 pm »

If you use plastic wad without the OPC, I think you will increase the amount of melted plastic.  I use the OPC, then a red plastic wad.  Good pattern.  Very easy cleanup.  If it ain't broke?...  But I look forward to your results.
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Lefty Dude
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 12:17:51 am »

I will stay tuned for results. Wink
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Mean Bob Mean
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2016, 02:52:55 pm »

I have a ton of cards and fiber wads, think I will see if I can make a recipe using a hybrid fiber/plastic setup. 

Thanks all for the ideas and encouragement you always posit here
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Colt Fanning
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2016, 08:12:49 am »

Howdy,
Ballistic products offers nitro cards, cushion wads and overshot cards in 9, 10, 11, and 12 Ga sizes.  I use the 9 ga wads in 10 ga brass shells and they are a tight fit.  I think you would be better off to use 11 Ga wads in 12 ga brass shells.
Regards
Colt
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Mean Bob Mean
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2016, 12:45:50 pm »

Howdy,
Ballistic products offers nitro cards, cushion wads and overshot cards in 9, 10, 11, and 12 Ga sizes.  I use the 9 ga wads in 10 ga brass shells and they are a tight fit.  I think you would be better off to use 11 Ga wads in 12 ga brass shells.
Regards
Colt

I use 11 gauge fiber wads as well but there are no 11 gauge plastic wads that I know of. 
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"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2016, 01:19:31 pm »

Hello Mudda .... Hello Fadda ..... dare I were at Camp Granada ......

So ....... Shot a match Saturday (yesterday).  Took my Knew-2-Me load for a shakedown.  All Brass 12Ga hulls, square one ounce load
10Ga plastic wad, Over Shot Cards.  Boomba!!  Worked a treat ........ well ...... almost.  Great Boom, sounded like a howitzer, but, alas
zero recoil.  Just felt the gun move a little.  No satisfying "thump" to the shoulder.  Pattern appeared to be nice and tight, but no real
velocity.  The payload just kind of ambled out there.  Made the targets to down, just took a week to get there.  Some just wiggled.

It's simple physics.  Every action as an equal but opposite reaction.  No recoil means the load has no real velocity.  Bummer.  New plan.
Add more Powda.  I just think the load is a mite anemic.  Gonna give it some more Boomba and see if I can get more chutzpa.  Also,
Snakeskin.  Really good snakeskin.  Bores looked like a sewer pipe yer plumber would tell ya to dig up and replace.  Ugly.  SO:
Just had to see how hard to clean up.  Gave the bores a solid shot of my secret recipe glass cleaner and counted to 13.  Shoved a patch
through the bore(s).  A patch.  Just one.  Fouling and snakeskin slit out, bores sparkled.  Marvelous.  Easy peasy cleanup.

Thus Far:  Successfully eliminated the gooey fiber cushion wad.  Successfully eliminated the Nitro Over Powder wad.  The 10Ga plastic
wad is a go.  Works a treat.  The load however, is some wussier.  Gotta add some Powda n see if I can speed it up a mite..  Currently
a One Ounce square load, gonna bump the powda to 1 1/8.  Maybe 1 1/4.  Oh, APP .. 2F

WHEEEEEEEEEE'
Coffinmaker

Forgot.  Also think I'm going to put the Nitro Over Powder card back in to reduce the heat on the plastic wad and maybe reduce the
snakeskin.   This are a real fun project.
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Abilene
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2016, 01:56:44 pm »

...Successfully eliminated the Nitro Over Powder wad.... Also think I'm going to put the Nitro Over Powder card back in to reduce the heat on the plastic wad and maybe reduce the
snakeskin.   This are a real fun project.

Since you had a satisfying thump with the same amount of powder before, I'm betting that adding back an 11 ga. OPC alone will give it back to you without needing to add more powder.  You'd think that a tight fitting plastic wad would seal enough for good pressure, but with APP I dunno.  BP blanks make lots of noise with no recoil, either  Smiley
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2016, 02:48:35 pm »

I learned (I could do that oncest) many years ago, Gunsmithing, if you make too many changes at once, you really don't know "which"
change gave you the desired result.  Always do one change at a time.  Except this time.  Gonna add powder AND the Over Powder card
at the same time.  If it works as hoped, I'll just stay with it.  Or, maybe just go to the OPC and see what it does.

I think an ounce of shot, in a good pattern with some chutzpa on it is plenty of shot.  7/8s in a Featherlight WW will take down anything.
I'm just surprised I have something here that makes a Featherlight seem .......... heavy.  This is being a lot of fun.  It's also nice the
fired hulls come out of my TTNs really nice.  I have also learned (there is that again) that the primers MUST be well seated.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2016, 05:35:04 pm »

Coffinmaker; How low did you go? The lower the pressure ona lode the tighter the shot pattern, which seems to be watcha got in spades.

I have heard of sawd off shooters trying get the knockdowns down by upping the powder charge. Result == Ring patterns of scattered shot and knockdowns proudly standing!

"Moderation in all things!" (An "ol proverb")
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2016, 07:38:41 pm »

http://youtu.be/XrL9T4fpnic

I'm loading 12 gauge Magtech hulls with 3.3 CCs of BlackMZ,  BPI PT-1044 10 gauge plastic wad, 1 oz reclamed shot, a biodegradable packing peanut compressed over shot to fill above top of wad, 10 gauge top card glued in with Duco cement.   I'm not putting much presure on the wad. 

I'd say this load is taking down our knockdowns about as well as AA Fearher Lights.  The third target from the right was set pretty hard.

I'm shooting a CZ-USA hammer coach gun with 20" barrels.  No snake,  only black soot.  Pour some water in bores and pull bore snake through from breach to muzzle.
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Lefty Dude
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2016, 11:42:18 am »

More powder is not required, just add the OPC back-in the column. This will give you the pressure you desire.

Remember, the plastic wad in a plastic shell has a very tight folded and star crimp. This is necessary for the pressure to build before the plastic wad is released. With the Brass case, the restriction of the case mouth is very little. The charge expels very quickly from the case, with little expansion, just a big boom.
The fiber wads give the charge a few Micro-seconds longer to expand and release the shot package with more gusto and power.

When I load Smokeless in the brass cases, I install two OPC on top of the powder. This is required to give the powder enough time to build up the needed pressure to expel the shot package. Smokeless powder has a much higher and quicker pressure spike than Black.
With one OPC and smokeless I was getting a lot of Boom and hardly any release, and very little power. I added the second card and issue was resolved.
Just my two cents, for what it is worth. Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2016, 12:12:48 pm »

Hey Lefty!!  Grin

This is all YOUR fault you know.  'Couple of seasons back when I got the wild hare to run All Brass Hulls, you were kind enough to provide
endless (et seemed) tutelage in the ways of the Brass.  GOT ME HOOKED!!  Now there is no hope.  I am now sliding down a long and
slippery slope, with no hope of salvation.  YOUR FAULT do ya hear!!
Thanks again for all your help.  I just loaded a box with the OPC stuffed back in.  Shooting three day match this coming weekend.  We'll
giver a shot (pun intended).

Ah Bibbyman ......... I've seen that Vid before.  Perhaps on another forum??  Perhaps under a slightly different alias??  Unless I are greatly
mistaken, your in the same boat with Lefty Dude.  It's YOUR FAULT!!  Got me started on this search to replace the gooey fiber wad and
cut down my loading time.  IT WORKS.  However, your shooting a different propellent.  I'm using APP.  Great googley Gobs of SnakeSnot
in the bore. (easy to clean, look ugly).  I haven't been to a pattern board yet, but it looks like my CAS distance shot pattern is about 10
inches.  Means I actually have to point the gun AT the target.  Strange concept.

There is a funny side too.  There I stood, shotgun at the ready wait for the beep.  Snapped the shotgun up, stepped into it, ready for the
recoil, pulled triggers BOOMBA like a howitzer.  I almost fell over face first cause the shotgun didn't move.  DIDLY SQUAT for recoil.  I'm
gonna load some of these for my Antique J. P. Sauer 12.  It weighs less than yer average 20Ga and WILL hurt ya (wimpy me).  Come to
think of it, lot more recoil with gooey Fiber wads.  Hummmmmmmmmmm.

THE SAGA CONTINUES  (STAY TUNA)

COFFINMAKER
 

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Lefty Dude
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2016, 01:17:38 pm »

I will stay tuned for more of the Saga !   Grin
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 02:38:11 pm »

I don't really care for tuna.  Smoked salmon, maybe?   Smiley
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Scattered Thumbs
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 02:55:01 pm »

I don't really care for tuna.  Smoked salmon, maybe?   Smiley

I like 'm both.  Cool

And I'll stay tuna. (love them reports from coffinmaker).

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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 03:45:15 pm »

A report from Coffinmaker could be Fishy, you understand.   Wink Grin
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Bibbyman
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 04:23:57 pm »

I always have to adjust when shooting black (or sub) or factory Remington Gun Club 1 oz target load.  The black powder loads are far gentler than the smokeless.

And yes, Coffenmaker,  I'm somebody else when I'm somewhere else.  I've been Bibbyman for a long time - long before I was a Cowboy Action Shooter.  Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 10:05:26 pm »

Bibbyman,
Thought so.  Thank you ever so much for your most excellent information on the use of 10Ga plastic wads.  I do cut the end of the wad
off to a 1 Oz load length though.  A nuisance, but I like the shot right at the top of the shot cup.  I don't really know why.  I just like
the shot at the top.  Sometimes, I'm not wrapped real tight.  I do strange things.  FUN things.

I have also loaded a box at the square load I started with, but re-introduced the OPC.  This is all so scientific you see.  Simple.  Load
shotgun.  Pull trigger.  Shotgun does not blow up ...... most excellent.  Peek thru smoke to see if target went down.  Target down, more
excellence.  Target not down.  Teach spectators and posse members new words.  Start process over with changes.  Repeat as necessary.

Most folks do not understand, "Target Loads" for shotguns, are not reduced nor "mild" loads.  Designed to break clay bird (just try and cook one tender to eat) at 30+ yards.  Target loads have lots of chutzpa.  Way more than we need.  Or want.

Working on the next chapter.  Coming soon, same Bat time ..... Same Bat channel.

Coffinmaker

Ah FISHY??  FISHY Roll Eyes  Wait till I describe YOUR deodorant  Grin
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2016, 07:18:48 pm »

THE SAGA CONTINUES >>>> or >>>>> Welcome to HARMONIUM GARDENS   Grin  Yessssssssssss  Successssssssss!!

Well, thanks to Bibbyman and several others, my latest foray into the dark world of All Brass 12Ga and APP has had a most HARMONIOUS
outcome. 
Halfway thru a multi day match today.  I are a tired puppy.  I digress.  I started the day with three loads, ALL using 10Ga plastic wads, and.
The "and" is the fun part.  One partial box is/was loaded with 50Gr 2f APP, a 10Ga wad cut for a 1 ounce payload and over shot cards.
Initially, this load seemed a little ...... anemic in my TTN.  Two boxes  loaded with 50Gr 2f APP, an Over Powder Card, then the 10Ga
plastic wad cut for 1 ounce payload and over shot cards.  And last but not least, one box with 60Gr APP, Over Powder Card, 10Ga plastic
wad cut for a 1 ounce payload and over shot cards.  You will note I said "over shot cards."  Cards being plural.  I use two 11Ga Over Shot Cards, NO glue.

It would seem, the Over Powder Card has returned the amount of chutzpa I sought.  Nice loads.  BOOMBA!!  LOTTA SMOKA!!  Would appear the shot patterns at around 8 inches.  Nice.  Gotta use the front beade  This is the load with 50Gr APP and Over Shot Card.  It
works very nicely.  Except the right barrel of my TTN doesn't like my All Brass with pistol primers.  Several miss-fires.

The 60Gr Load is ...... stout.  Lotta chutzpa.  Lotta somka.  Similar shot pattern at 8 inches.  Same occasional miss-fires.   Gonna go thru the gun and trust it just needs a new Main Spring.  Gotta lotta rounds thru it.

The 50Gr load with no Over Powder Card that seems anemic in the TTN is the KATZ MEOW in my very light Antique J P Sauer with it's
2 1/2 inch chambers.  No excessive recoil.  Good chutzpa and again a nice pattern at about 6 inches.  Front beade very necessary.  The
J P Sauer also has Main Springs from hell.  Those suckers will set of artillery rounds.  A little slow to cock but DEAD RELIABLE.

After 6 full stages switching between guns to test ALL the loads, at the end of the day, cleaning revealed absolutely NO SNAKESKIN.  The
only thing in the bores was powder residue.  Cleanup was super easy.  Shot the bores with my secret formula, ONE patch and PRESTO
CHANGO >>>> Sparkly bores.

So my search has ended.  I have a really great load for the J P Sauer and a really great load for the TTN.  Really easy to load/re-load,
quick to re-load and ........ TA DA >> NO SNAKESNOT in the bores.  Wunderbar .. BOOMBA!!

Finish the match tomorrow.  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2016, 09:44:24 pm »

My Dear Coffin & Friends

I have been watching this thread will great anticipation! Thanks for all the fish all the info!

Since deliverying the killing blow my notice at the day job and severing the heads from the hydra repudiating any and all former knowledge getting out of that mess, I intend to be following in CM's footsteps in the next few years months weeks; that is, once I  shovel thru the shite re-organize the mess, find all my brass & paper shotgun shells,  and get my shop back together!

Coffin, I suspect, but cannot prove, that you have avoided the lametable plastic snot via the use of APP. Since I finally found two bottles I will try it in a few applications and see how it goes. Otherwise, and with any luck , I may be able to repleneish my True BP supplies at the two local upcoming rondesvouz ....

yhs
prof ( sorry, can't help ya, i don't work there anymore) marvel
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2016, 01:08:23 am »

I must let the Fish digest, before I explore comments. Grin Wink Burp !  Huh
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