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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt Firearms (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: Nipple for 2nd Generation Colt 1851 Navy 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Nipple for 2nd Generation Colt 1851 Navy  (Read 12685 times)
Okefinokee Outlaw
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« on: May 30, 2016, 09:05:34 pm »


I purchased an unfired 2nd generation Colt 1851 C series revolver.  The nipples are too slim to even hold a #10 cap, so I purchased replacement nipples that hold a #11 cap from Track of the Wolf.  The problem is that the #11's bind on the little ridge machined into the part of the gun behind the cylinder.  I switched out the nipples from my 2nd generation 1860 Army that hold #10's well, and the 1851 functions fine with the #10 caps.  Might anyone know where I can obtain replacement nipples that hold #10 caps.? 
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2016, 10:08:37 pm »

After some more fiddling, and also having the same issue occasionally with the #10 nipples from my 1860 installed on my 1851, this may not be a nipple problem after all.  On my 1860 Army, I can pull the hammer to half cock when all caps are in place and rotate the cylinder.  On my 1851 Navy, unless the hammer goes all the way forward, it will not go to a half or full cock.  So when no caps are installed, I can half and full cock all day long.  But when the caps are installed, only after firing will I be able to SOMETIMES cock; it is still hanging up from time to time.  Sounds like maybe a timing issue? 
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2016, 10:52:31 pm »

Yes.  No.  and ..... TA DA!!  Maybe.  First one up for bids.  The nipples stand too tall up out of the cylinder.  Last bunch of 2d Gen Colt
51 Navies I worked on, accepted SlixShot nipples for Uberti.  Little anti-seize lube and they spun right in. Function with #10 Remington
caps was just right.

With the too tall nipples, the hammer isn't being allowed to travel far enough forward to release and re-set the locking bolt.  There are two
ways to solve the issue.  Well, maybe three.  Relieve the bolt arm at the cam, bevel the release side, re-polish, test for function.  Repeat as necessary. 2.  Pull the nipples you got from TOW, put em inna lathe, turn em down to the correct height, then re-machine the sides so #10
caps will fit again.  3.  Return the incorrect height nipples to TOW.  Fit a set of SlixShot and see what you get.

Before I would even think of doing #1 or #2, the incorrect nipples would go back to TOW.

Coffinmaker
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 08:37:09 am »

Thanks Coffinmaker.  I'll go the SlixShot route and see what happens.  12-28 threads, correct?
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Fingers McGee
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2016, 10:29:14 am »

What Coffinmaker said

2nd Gens take Uberti nipples and spare parts.  SlixShots work really well.
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Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
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LonesomePigeon
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2016, 10:32:02 am »

I have a Colt 2nd Gen F-Series. I replaced the nipples with Slix Shot's Uberti nipples from Longhunter, they fit the gun and caps perfectly.

http://www.longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_97&product_id=267

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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2016, 11:24:48 am »

Thanks folks.  SlixShots on the way.
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2016, 08:54:21 pm »

I'm wondering if another contributing factor might be that the gap between the forcing cone and cylinder is virtually immeasurable.  Perhaps I should stone this a bit to create a gap of a few thousandths?  Even with the wedge halfway in, there is virtually no gap.
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LonesomePigeon
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2016, 09:33:37 pm »

Sounds like the arbor is too short. There's an order you should go in to fix the cylinder gap, first correct arbor fit , then wedge fit then if necessary stone the forcing cone... I think. Other people know more and hopefully they will chime in.
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2016, 09:01:54 pm »

Checked the arbor length, and it is absolutely perfect.  With the cylinder out, I started the barrel assembly upside down and rotated till it met with the frame, and it is dead on.  I'll wait till I install the new nipples before doing anything further.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2016, 05:19:02 pm »

There are TWO tests the gun MUST pass.  You have done the first.  Normally though, A Uberti sourced barrel will not fully seat on the
arbor because they are also too tight of fit.  The inside of the bore in the barrel lug need clean'd up.  There ARE burrs.  The end of the
arbor need polished.  The barrel should slide easily onto the arbor until you can FEEL it bottom out.  Then do the "turn the barrel"
test.  The second test is with the Cylinder in.  Add the barrel and check the barrel to cylinder gap with a feeler gauge.  Then instal
the wedge where it is suppose to be (spring hook proud) and recheck the barrel/cylinder gap.  Should be the same.  Should  NOT
close up.

If you take a close look at the frame recoil shield, you will notice a raised thrust ring.  In rotation, the cylinder rides that ring (remember to grease it).  The barrel cannot force the cylinder any farther back.  When the gun is cocked, the hand pushes the cylinder forward, away
from the recoil shield.  Too little cylinder gap can cause the gun to Jam but will have nothing to do with too tall nipples.

Coffinmaker
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2016, 09:41:00 pm »

Redid first test and the fit is perfect.  The barrel slides easily onto the arbor and I could feel it bottom out.  Also checked for burrs.

With barrel installed with cylinder in, without the wedge installed, the gap is .011.

With wedge installed, the gap is .006.
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2016, 10:18:59 pm »

If the arbor is bottoming out, should be no change.  Also, shouldn't be able to lock up cyl. by driving the wedge in. Yours would be the first I've heard  of the 2nd gens that didn't have a short arbor (or any of the "gens" for that matter .  .  . except the first of course!! ).

A tight barrel/cyl clearance is more efficient and leaves the revolver much cleaner. Mr. Pettifogger has an excellent article about how to correct the arbor "problem". I'm sure a savy techno. poster can post a link .  .  .   (that wouldn't be me).


Mike
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2016, 07:50:55 am »

You may be mistaking the feel of the lower barrel lug bottoming against the frame at the locator pins.  If the relationship of the barre to
arbor fit and lower frame is correct, the wedge cannot change the barrel to cylinder gap.

If I were going to bet paychecks, I'd bet your arbor is about .005 too short and needs to be shimmed.

Coffinmaker
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2016, 09:26:16 am »

I'm inserting the arbor into the barrel assembly with the locator pins rotated away from the frame.  When I hold it tight and rotate, the matchup is absolutely perfect.
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2016, 09:34:49 am »

Just drop a thin washer in the arbor hole and assemble. I bet you will be able to.
 I'm pretty sure you can lock up the cyl by taping in the wedge. (Both of these will show a short arbor) (by the way, Colts own instructions say to tap the wedge in and out. You can't remove the "necessary" assembly clearances with just a finger tight wedge.)


The taper fit is not the proper nor is it the original design. Pietta seems to be the only one to step up to the plate and has addressed the problem (somewhat. I set them to a much tighter clearance but they are a much better setup than Uberti's "system")

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2016, 09:42:47 pm »

I have some .005 brass sheet, so I fabricated a small piece that dropped into the arbor hole.  Doing this created a very very small gap between the barrel assembly and frame, so I'm guessing that at most it's only .003 short.  Could such a small dimension create havoc?
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2016, 02:30:19 am »

In a word .  .  .  .  .  yes.  That's what allows wedges to be beaten to death.  The arbor must have GOOD contact with the barrel to allow for energy transmission. As long as there is a buffer (space of any kind) the two assemblies will vibrate at different rates which is very destructive. With good contact, the assys will act as a solid unit. This is an easy job for the wedge and is what protects  the wedge (and arbor/barrel contact points).
 This is also what "defines" the barrel/ cylinder clearance. Tapping (more like smacking) the wedge in place removes all the play/ tollerances between the assys., produces a "solid" (acting) frame and defines the aforementioned bbl/cyl clearance. Just so we're on the same page, I measure the clearance in "as fired " position (cylinder locked, hammer down while pulling cylinder fully to the rear). My number for the clearance is .002" and I use steel shims (rather than brass) held in the arbor hole with a steel impregnated epoxy (JB).
  Now, you will have the same revolver each time you assemble it and it will act and shoot as a solid frame revolver (as designed). The fact that the cyl contacts the forcing cone each time you cycle the action is what allows the .002" bbl/cyl clearance (and why it's a clearance and not a gap).  So, it's "self cleaning" and will keep fouling to a minimum and will allow all day shooting without any cylinder binding.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2016, 01:30:08 pm »

I never just drop a washer into the arbor hole.  The barrel/arbor gap varies greatly between guns.  I have measured the gap from around .010 to well over .060".  I hand fit each spacer to a particular gun.  Once the barrel to arbor fit is corrected it should last a lifetime.
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45 Dragoon
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2016, 09:42:34 pm »

I don't either. I knew if the "perfect fit" was still perfect after dropping a washer in, he'd get the idea  it ain't perfect.  I was just proving a point.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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Montana Slim
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2016, 04:51:57 pm »

I've posted elsewhere...but will pass along my tip with washers...Bend a steel washer into a bit of a "V" shape then drop in the hole. You can custom fit the height by assembling the gun (with washer in place), & tap the muzzle lightly with a block of word until perfectly adjusted. You can continue to use with the washer in place, or use it's virtual height to establish the thickness needed for a permanent alteration. Many ways to skin the final solution. I have a total of 4-revolvers using a "V" washer (retained by heavy grease) to fit the assembly, & spent no more than 20 minutes total on all 4.

Not perfect, but it works.

Slim
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt Firearms (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: Nipple for 2nd Generation Colt 1851 Navy « previous next »
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