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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Full Power 45 Colt Loads 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Full Power 45 Colt Loads  (Read 12923 times)
Dave T
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« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2016, 10:10:24 am »

I went the route of using a compression die.

Never seen or heard of a "compression die". Can you tell me more about this?

Dave
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Good Troy
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« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2016, 12:21:47 pm »

Track of the Wolf sells compresion dies.  I have purchased some for 45-70 and 38-55 from them.  It is basically the body for an expanding die with an adjustable plug.  You adjust the plug to compress the powder to the level you want (depth of bullet).
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2016, 06:35:53 pm »

I just read 4foD post: [ I should have specified in my initial post that I'm interested in duplicating full powder civilian ammo. That's confusing enough without adding in the military's inability to settle on what cartridge they were going to shoot (lol).]



The Civilian max charge started out as 40 grains of an undetermined grade of Black Powder.  Then Remington/UMC as well as Winchester dropped the charge to 35 grains of BP pushing a 250 to 255 grain hollow based/cup based swaged conical bullet.

The Military however dropped their charge for the .45 Colt to 30 grains of 2Fg below a one-quarter inch cork wad under a 250/255 grain lead bullet.

The Army then opted for the Schofield round and charged them with 28 to 30 grains of 2Fg and a 230 grain HB bullet.
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« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2017, 03:25:16 pm »

Hello,

I have the RCBS 45-270-SA (285gr) mold...
Would this bullet be too heavy for an 1883 Colt SAA?
If this seems reasonable, how much black powder could be safely used, and should the bullet be fairly soft, maybe not too tight or heavily crimped? 25gr with a wad?
Or would a 200gr bullet with say 30gr of 3F be a safer bet?

Thanks!

Gil.
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medic15al
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« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2017, 03:39:37 pm »

Welcome to CASS forum!

With an 1883 I would personally go with a 200 grn with 30 grains of 2FG BP.

I am sure you had the SAA checked for safe operation and would use this load to go easy on the revolver of that age. No use in stressing the old gal.

Pics of the revolver would be welcomed!    Grin

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greyhawk
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« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2017, 07:25:36 pm »

Holy Crap My Good Drydock!

I had read of the older definitions, but did not realize that "pistol" grade was closer to 4F!

Have you ever tried loading 4F into pistol cartridges,  or do you have knowledge of anyone beside Elemr Kieth who did?

yhs
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I have a friend uses FFFFg in his 357 Lightening - 357 magnum makes a durn fine blackpowder round - 21 grains weight and MR LEE's 158 grain RNFP boolit - have not chronoed it but sounds just nice.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2017, 07:28:07 pm »

If you go back into the old documentation, ie pre ww1, you will find references to the various granulations in terms of "Musket" "Rifle" "Pistol" .  There are others, but I tried to determine what those meant, and how they correspond to the modern "F" designations.  I believe the modern ideas of "2F in 40 caliber and above" et al, came about in the 1950s from early ML reinactors, and it somehow became entrenched as "Old Knowledge"  But like so much BP info from that era, (Cleaning, fouling, lubricant, use of water) it's wrong.

I cannot prove it, but a theory of mine is that someone back in the 50s decided to call 4f "Priming" powder for his flintlock.  This is apocryphal,  as Flintlocks were primed with whatever powder was in the paper cartridge or powder horn of the user.  Few if any Flintlock users, and certainly NO military, ever carried a separate priming powder.  But this somehow got accepted as "Truth".  Well then, what is this "Pistol" grade stuff?  Well that must  have been 3f.  And so on.  Then the johnny come lately cartridge guys accepted that the old frontstuffers must know what they're talking about . . .

Drydock - just interested in how, where, and when, use of water is wrong??  The best blackpowder solvent /cleaning fluid and its free !!!
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gilgsn
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2017, 05:10:06 am »

Thanks Medic. No pictures yet, I just put a hold on it...

Gil.
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2017, 01:10:18 pm »

Moosemilk is my chosen cleaner/solvent/lubricator/rust preventer.  The water does the work and the Ballistol does the rest.  Moosemilk is colloidal suspension of one part Ballistol to Ten parts water.  This is what I spritz my bores with before I tug the Bore Snake thru.

DD-MDA
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greenjoytj
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« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2018, 11:22:04 pm »

Historically speaking, there have been several different .45 Colt b.p. loadings in boxer primed cases over the years.
.........28 grs., 35 grs., 38 grs., 40 grs.

Awhile back I purchased some U.M.C. headstamped .45 Colt b.p. ammunition. I dissected the cartridges and found that three of them contained the 35 gr charge and the rest, 40 grs.  The powder had a polished appearance and screening determined that it was FFG granulation
The 40 gr charges in the SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket aka balloon head) cases required .20" of compression.
Average velocity in a 7 1/2" barrel was 932 f.p.s.
w44wcf

Iíve dug 35 gr charges of  2fg BP out of 45 Colt case sand I donít know how it could be done with out damaging the individual granuals.
For me the dug out powder (GOEX) broke up to dust mostly finer than 4 fg, true dust.  So I do believe the velocity achieved in the 7 Ĺ ď barrel loading the dust back into those original cases.

As to the original poster question about  duplicating maximum power original 45 Colt loads.  I think the problem is trying to determine if there was one original load.  I do believe a 40 gr charge was tried by the US Cavlery during initial load development  but it was quickly deemed too hard on the Colt SAA and the shooter.  So the charge was reduced and changed many times there after.  I would say that there was no original load, just a wide variety of loads all tried and some accepted for use by the government.

I load 35 gr of 2 fg GOEX in Starline minimum trim to length brass  with  CCI 350 mag primers and a cast 20:1 alloy 261 gr bullet with SPG lube.  I get a average velocity in an Ruger NV 5.5Ē barrel of  817 fps.
Just for information using the same components listed above but swapping the BP for 9.0 grs (.2 under max) Hodgdon CFE Pistol got me 1040 fps.

So I think any powder charge 35 grs up to 40 grs could be called your maximum.

Iíve seen  a uTube video of  45 Colt 7 ĹĒ SAA chronííng  1000 fps for some shots with 40 gr of BP.

Unless you want to duplex a BP load with some smokeless the MV you get with your revolver with what ever charge of BP you use is fixed by the gun itís self.  No 2 guns will launch the same load to the same MV.

So whatís like to load up a S&W X frame 460s&w with 2 fg BP?  Should make for a nice big cloud of smoke.  Wish I had one of those.
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2018, 06:05:01 pm »

The loads you chose to load depend on your mission.  If it's deer hunting, then go for the maximum.  If you want the absolute most WOWS at a SASS match, go with the maximum.  But, if you are in the game for speed and accuracy, go for a manageable recoil load that delivers consistent velocities and known accuracy.  With Holy Black, you do have options with this venerable old cartridge and the guns chambered for it.  If your gun is vintage old, respect the old gal and load down a bit.  If your gun is a modern Ruger, then stuff in all the Holy Black you can and the gun will only ask for more.

DD-MDA
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Dave T
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« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2018, 12:48:42 pm »

Dick, my interest in finding the "original" performance was to experience what it was like shooting a 45 Colt SAA in the last quarter of the 19th Century. I gave up competing back in '94 and just want to feel the power and appeal of the original when I drag my busted up self out to the range. (smile)

Dave
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Drydock
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« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2018, 03:11:10 pm »

My reference was to so many ot those BP shooters not knowing HOW or even IF to use water.  IE water causes rust, right?  Better to use some more modern wonder solvent, right? 

Phoohy!  Water is the best and only thing I use to clean up a BP fouled gun.
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« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2018, 03:41:56 pm »

I agree Sir Drydock,

Water does the work.  I mix in 1 part Ballistol with 10 parts water because the residual mix leaves a protective coating of lubricant/rust preventive.  But, you're absolutely correct about the water.  Water is the solvent of choice for cleaning bp fouled guns.  The Ballistol is there only for the reasons stated above.

DD-MDA
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greyhawk
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« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2018, 09:39:47 pm »

My reference was to so many ot those BP shooters not knowing HOW or even IF to use water.  IE water causes rust, right?  Better to use some more modern wonder solvent, right? 

Phoohy!  Water is the best and only thing I use to clean up a BP fouled gun.


Thanks for clarifying   - just the way you wrote that sentence it looked like you meant water was  "old knowledge" and wrong -----I see new shooters spend a lot of cash on fancy packaged cleaners and on commercial lubes that stink like horse liniment - cash they would be better most times spent on powder and caps. Simple cleaners and simple lubes work. This is not rocket science ........well - it kinda is I guess but very old rocket science -   
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Full Power 45 Colt Loads « previous next »
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