Author Topic: 45 Schofield?  (Read 9016 times)

Offline treebeard

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 484
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 16
45 Schofield?
« on: November 20, 2015, 07:01:17 PM »
Can the 45 Schofield cases be used in the repro 1866's and Henry's without modification? This would be for those chambered
For 45 Colt.

Offline Abilene

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4672
    • Abilene's CAS Pages
  • SASS #: 27489
  • NCOWS #: 3958
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1180
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2015, 07:41:52 PM »
For the most part, yes.  You have to keep the OAL long enough.  Black Hills sold two types of Schofield rounds, and the one with the smaller bullet (and shorter OAL) would not cycle, whereas the one with the larger (230gr I think) was longer and would cycle.

I have started shooting Schofields in my .45 Colt '73, which has the same action, using a 250gr bullet and it cycles fine.

YMMV of course.

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2015, 03:44:09 PM »
In my experience there are two considerations for 45 Schofield cases in the Toggle guns.  First is overall length.  I found anything shorter than a 200Gr bullet would normally double feed and jam.  Next is rim diameter.  Because of the increase in rim diameter, "some" rifles may balk at feeding and chambering Schofield.  Usually a tiny relief of the cartridge guide tab (bottom of Breach Block) and a light dressing of the extractor hook will solve the issue. 
Most toggle rifles will run Schofield with no problem straight out of the box.  OAL being the only consideration.

Coffinmaker

Advertising

  • Guest
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 07:27:23 AM »

Offline Cliff Fendley

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 360
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2015, 10:33:07 PM »
Most Schofield brass nowadays has the rims small enough they will work pretty much like a 45 colt in regards to the rim.

As the others said you just have to keep the AOL long enough and a bullet profile that will keep the next round in the magazine from coming back too far and preventing the lifter block from raising.
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

NCOWS 3345  RATS 576 NRA Life member

Johnson County Rangers

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 09:47:26 PM »
45 Schofield brass is a nominal .010 larger in diameter than 45 Colt.  It functions because the gun is tolerant.

Coffinmaker

Offline tommy4toes

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2015, 06:52:18 AM »
I would love to switch over to 45 Scofield, if nothing else just to have that extra round in the Henrys and Winchester's.

$800 worth of brass is all I need :D

T4t

Offline Abilene

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4672
    • Abilene's CAS Pages
  • SASS #: 27489
  • NCOWS #: 3958
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1180
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2015, 08:40:50 AM »
I would love to switch over to 45 Scofield, if nothing else just to have that extra round in the Henrys and Winchester's.

$800 worth of brass is all I need :D

T4t

$800?  That would be about 3500 pieces of Starline brass.  T4T, in case you might be new to CAS, I must tell you that at matches someone will pick up your rifle brass and give it back to you  ;D

Offline Jake C

  • Department of the Atlantic, GAF # 834
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 579
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2015, 09:23:45 AM »
I would love to switch over to 45 Scofield, if nothing else just to have that extra round in the Henrys and Winchester's.

$800 worth of brass is all I need :D

T4t

Will using .45 Schofield give you an extra round? I had planned on using Schofield rounds in my '66, once I get it because it is the closest to the original cartridge I can easily get in terms of ballistics, but an extra round has me even more excited about the prospect!
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Driftwood Johnson

  • Driftwood Johnson
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1887
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2015, 05:28:36 PM »
Quote
45 Schofield brass is a nominal .010 larger in diameter than 45 Colt.  It functions because the gun is tolerant.

Not quite. Nominal rim diameter of the 45 Colt round is .512. Nominal rim diameter of the 45 Schofield is .520.

The delta is .008.
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2015, 06:44:43 PM »
Ah Ha!  .002 off.  I blame my cheap General Tool Plastic Micro.  Only good excuse I got.  ::)    Still ........ .008 bigger is still .008 bigger and, in some toggle rifles, a serious .008  :o ;D

Coffinmaker

Offline tommy4toes

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2015, 07:35:28 PM »
Yeah that's about how many LC rds I have loaded.....I've got 8 guns  in 45 colt !

T4t

Offline Cliff Fendley

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 360
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2015, 09:44:47 PM »
Apparently the original Schofield had larger rims.

The last Schofield brass I got from Starline came with a paper explaining the rim diameter had been reduced so it would work in "most" 45 Colt firearms. It said that the original Schofield round would only chamber in every other chamber of a Colt revolver so the army issued ammo reducing the rim slightly so the round would work in both Schofield and Colt revolvers and this is the round the became called 45 colt government.

I have heard that before but can someone verify that as fact?
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

NCOWS 3345  RATS 576 NRA Life member

Johnson County Rangers

Offline pony express

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3629
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2015, 06:52:13 PM »
I've got some older Starline Schofield brass, I've had it for 6 or 7 years, and got it from another shooter that retired from CAS, so maybe 10 years or more old. Anyway, it will fit in all the chambers of my early 1900'sColt, but the rims are a friction fit and they actually "snap" into place when I load them.

They work "ok" in my '66, but you must use a long enough bullet. Using the Lee 250gr rnfp will result in jams, due to it's short nose section.

I'm not sure about the history, but I seem to remember reading that the ".45 Government" cartridge came when the Army adopted the Colt New Service, and discovered that the extractor would slip past the tiny rims of the standard .45 Colt, so they made a cartridge with larger rims, but if used in the SAA, it became a "3 shooter"  since you could only load every other hole.

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2015, 07:18:13 PM »
Cliff,
My research shows no designation of any round as the 45 Colt Government.  The Army did introduce a round with a reduced rim, designated as the M1877 Ball.  The round was made at the Frankford Arsenal for the Army.  I have found no information about it being made available to the general public.

Currently, Starline advertises their 45 Schofield as "approximately" .010 larger than 45 Colt.  That has been my experience.  the original Spec for the Schofield was approximately .522 and Colt was .512  My cheapo General Tool Micro shows that 4 out of 5 tries.  Most
New built reproductions of the SAA have the recesses for the cartridge rim cut to allow Schofield brass.  Original Ruger Vaquero needed a little work to run Schofield cases.  Either cut little flats on the Hub or turn the whole hub down .005

Coffinmaker

Offline Cliff Fendley

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 360
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 10:03:20 PM »
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

NCOWS 3345  RATS 576 NRA Life member

Johnson County Rangers

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 02:10:14 PM »
Well .... I'll be darned.  Learn something new all the time.  Who'd a thunk it  ;D

Coffinmaker

Offline Cliff Fendley

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 360
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 04:31:55 PM »
Well .... I'll be darned.  Learn something new all the time.  Who'd a thunk it  ;D

Coffinmaker

The thing is I have heard and read that the 45 Schofield became called the 45 Colt Government since it would work in both revolvers but I have also heard that a "modified" Schofield with a smaller rim diameter was actually the 45 Colt government. Never knew which to believe.
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

NCOWS 3345  RATS 576 NRA Life member

Johnson County Rangers

Offline Driftwood Johnson

  • Driftwood Johnson
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1887
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2015, 06:44:34 PM »
Quote
Apparently the original Schofield had larger rims.

The last Schofield brass I got from Starline came with a paper explaining the rim diameter had been reduced so it would work in "most" 45 Colt firearms. It said that the original Schofield round would only chamber in every other chamber of a Colt revolver so the army issued ammo reducing the rim slightly so the round would work in both Schofield and Colt revolvers and this is the round the became called 45 colt government.

I have heard that before but can someone verify that as fact?

Howdy

Here is a photo of a couple of original Benet Primed 45 Schofield rounds in the cylinder of a 2nd Gen Colt. Do not be fooled into believing these are rimfire rounds, they are not. These are the original configuration of the Schofield cartridge, dating from about 1875. Benet priming was inside priming, and the rounds looked like rimfire rounds from the rear. The rim diameter of these rounds is .518. .002 less than the current SAAMI standard of .520 for Schofield rounds. As you can see, there is plenty of room for two rounds to be in adjacent chambers.







In this photo, the two rounds at the left are Benet Primed 45 colt rounds, dating from 1874, the next two rounds are the Benet primed Schofield rounds. The dents in the sides of the rounds are crimps that hold the inside priming plate in position.






I believe you are mistaken about Schofield rounds having rims too big to be seated next to each other in a Colt. I believe you are referring to the 45 Colt round all the way on the right in this photo. Notice how big the rim is. The rim on this round is .538 in diameter. This round was made by Frankford Arsenal for the double action Colts that the Army was using up until the 1911 Semi-Auto was adopted by the Army. The extractor of these Colts needed a really big rim, and yes, you could not put two of these rounds next to each other in a SAA.






In this photo, the round with the big rim is bottom center in the SAA cylinder. Notice how little room there is around it for the nearby cartridges. If I had another one of these rounds, it would not have fit in an adjacent chamber.







This is the same round in the cylinder of a Colt New Service. I forget exactly when this revolver was made, but it was before World War One. Notice how much more room there is for rims of adjacent cartridges. This is the revolver that needed the round with the larger rim.





Quote
Currently, Starline advertises their 45 Schofield as "approximately" .010 larger than 45 Colt.  That has been my experience.  the original Spec for the Schofield was approximately .522 and Colt was .512  My cheapo General Tool Micro shows that 4 out of 5 tries. 


.512 is incorrect for the original 45 Colt rims. Notice how tiny some of the rims are on some of the old 45 Colt rounds in my photos. Some of them are as small as .505 in diameter. Early 45 Colt cartridges had tiny rims because all the rim had to do was keep the cartridge from being shoved into the chamber when the firing pin struck the primer. There was no extractor that needed to get a grip on the rims. Those Benet primed 45 Colt rounds of mine have rims only .502 in diameter. That is the original configuration of the 45 Colt round.




And cutting a 'recess' around the rim would not accomplish much if the chambers were too closely spaced to fit two rounds next to each other anyway. My experience is that yes, Rugers sometimes have a problem seating Schofield rounds with their larger rim diameter, because of the different shape of the ratchet teeth on the cylinder. I have had to do a little bit of filing on a Ruger so it would seat Schofield Rounds. My Colts have not needed any alterations to chamber Schofield rounds, antique or modern.
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2015, 04:30:15 AM »
Great thread...Very informative. You can see why the 45 Colt was not chambered in any rifles until modern times. That rim was just too small for the extractor to grab
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline Cliff Fendley

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 360
Re: 45 Schofield?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2015, 12:34:41 PM »
Very informative, according to Driftwoods post the information provided by Starline about the rim diameters is totally incorrect.

I finally found that paper that came with the Starline Schofield brass but it's two pages so rather than type it I'll try and scan and copy it to this page.
http://www.fendleyknives.com/

NCOWS 3345  RATS 576 NRA Life member

Johnson County Rangers

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2023 CAScity.com