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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Shooter's Meeting (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Camille Eonich)  |  Topic: Stage design 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Stage design  (Read 3078 times)
TUCO-the-ratt
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« on: August 19, 2015, 07:33:35 am »


 My background in IDPA/USPSA type run and gun matches. This year I have shot a few Cowboy matches for the first time. I really enjoy the people, cowboy guns and dress up experience. The stages themselves however are getting repetitive, mostly dump ammo from one position, step a few feet and dump the next firearm on targets arranged in a line in shooting gallery fashion.   

 I find the stages in IDPA to be far more varied and interesting. I was reading through the SASS handbook and noticed that although moving with a cocked and loaded firearm is prohibited nothing was stated about moving with an uncocked loaded firearm with no round in the chamber. I'm wondering if it is within the rules to design a stage to shoot a couple of targets, move with an uncocked gun with an empty chamber, then cock or lever it at the next shooting position and then engage the next target? This would open up a lot of variety in the stages that I'm not seeing as of yet.
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Jefro
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2015, 01:24:41 pm »

Howdy Tuco and welcome. Range rules and props will have alot to do with stage design, some ranges are not set up for downrange movement thus back and forth...side to side. There are plenty of stages with split pistols, 5 rounds then move and 5 more rounds. Usually not more than once in a six stage match, if you have too many it forces the Gunfighter category to shoot 5, move shoot 5 more, or split their pistols double duelist style. (Double Duelist style) 5 rounds with right hand and 5 rounds with left. You will rarely if ever see splits with rifle, too much muscle memory......to do it (say 5 & 5) the shooter would have stop levering after the 5th round, hammer down on empty case then move......or action open round on carrier or in chamber, but you cannot close the action in this condition till stopped. We have learned to lever our rifles so fast this could cause problems, plus the masses do not like stages that will trip them up and cause penalties.

   SASS is a family sport for the young and old alike, and many are first time shooters. Stages need to be designed for all ages and abilities, memory contests and foot races are frowned upon. Having said all that SASS stages need not be boring and repetitive. I usually set up stages with three shooting positions, or two postions with a reactive target, bonus reloads and/or downrange movement. One way to split up the stage is with the shotgun at 2 or 3 different postions and between the other firearms. There are many ways, props, targets and target placements to break up the stages........and shooters choice on where to start the stage (left or right) or which firearm to start and finish with.

     Try to go to as many different matches as you can, you may find some clubs that do things a little different, I know around here no two clubs have the same type of match. After you've been around a while make suggestions to the match director, offer to write a few stages for them to approve or tweek to fit the range.

     And don't ferget Wild Bunch, there you'll find stages much more involved than SASS. I've been meaning to put all of our stages on a PDF file to share, maybe this will get me started. Good Luck Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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sass # 69420....JEDI GF #104.....NC Soot Lord....CFDA#1362
44-40 takes a back seat to no other caliber
TUCO-the-ratt
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2015, 06:43:01 pm »

Thanks for the feedback Jefro. Those sound like good suggestions and I can see a lot of variety is possible using the traditional program. 
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Jefro
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 03:40:38 pm »

Howdy again Tuco, I just finished our Wild Bunch stages for Sat. and thought of a couple of more factors that may play into the stage design. One is the weather, it's been hot, hot, hot and humid around here. I had to work at it to keep our round count under 100 for the pistol. I've tried to work in the Texas Star a couple of times this summer but had to pull it due to the heat. It takes two to reset the star and two to shag brass and a couple of more to reset shotgun, clay and reactive targets. Our shooters are not getting any younger me included.
    Another is the set up on Friday, again no one is getting younger and we are setting all steel targets, no paper here. All of our targets are 3/8 AR500, and don't ferget the stands......"Shhhhwe I'm starting to sweat just thinking about it" Shocked This sport is an all volunteer deal, how many people show up on Friday to set all this steel for everyones enjoyment?? Huh That could and should factor in how a MD writes the stages. I'm lucky to have several I can count on, but sure could use a few more. In the summer I have to consider their enjoyment also, burnout is the easiest way to lose good help.
   One way to learn more is to volunteer when you can. At the matches stay up on the line shaggin brass and reset targets, you'll learn alot more faster being involved. Find out what it takes to be the best spotter in the world. Grin  Good Luck Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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sass # 69420....JEDI GF #104.....NC Soot Lord....CFDA#1362
44-40 takes a back seat to no other caliber
TUCO-the-ratt
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 10:59:16 pm »

Jefro,

Those are good points.

A little more info. I addition to shooting a few matches I've been helping revive the small local club here in Eastern Montana. To help I wrote a couple of basic stages for a match here last week and helped set up and run the mach. So I know what you mean. It is a lot of work. 

While we're on the subject. In IDPA we don't shy away from the fact that we are training to kill people in a gun fight. We use cardboard silhouettes that mimic the human form and award progressively higher scores as shots fall near the heart or head zones. Personally I enjoy the realism, as morbid as it might sound. I notice that in Cowboy Action Shooting the targets are generally shapes of card symbols, little cartoon cowboys or squares. What is your opinion or is there a rule about using realistic steel silhouette targets?     
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Jefro
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 08:52:38 pm »

Jefro,

I notice that in Cowboy Action Shooting the targets are generally shapes of card symbols, little cartoon cowboys or squares. What is your opinion or is there a rule about using realistic steel silhouette targets?     
Howdy Tuco, no rule about targets, size or distance just recomendations. Most clubs are getting away from some of the shaped targets mostly because of a very small sweet spot. The card symbols are the disliked the most, yer lucky to get a 10"x12" spot in an 18" target, I think the train set runs a close second. We use mostly 16"x16" squares and 18"x24" rectangles. We also have some of the 18"x24" cowboys, as well as coffin lids and tombstones. We use a mix of them all, but will pull in closer those with the cutout shapes. Our customers like to hear the bang'n clang. Grin
 Glad to hear yer helping a club get going, keep up the good fight. I shoot some IDPA too, but SASS is totally different. Good Luck  Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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sass # 69420....JEDI GF #104.....NC Soot Lord....CFDA#1362
44-40 takes a back seat to no other caliber
pony express
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 07:12:08 am »

Tuco, if you have different clubs in the area, you'll find they all do things different. my club has gotten a little that way-the targets never move, just changes in the shooting order. We have a range where we can leave everything up most of the year. I like to have a little challenge in the targets, but others have never seen a target too close or too big. most of the newer targets are squares or headstone shaped. ASs for the shaped targets, we have a bottle rack that nearly caused a mutiny, they were only about 2 or 3" wide... One of the other harder ones seems to be the coyote targets-looks big, but there's a lot of open space between his body and tail.
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Johnny McCrae
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 09:46:54 am »

For our monthly shoots in May each year our SASS Club bases the stages on Western movies. Attached are a few examples based on Lonesome Dove.


* May 2014 Stage 1 Lonesome Dove bar scene.jpg (145.08 KB, 816x1056 - viewed 188 times.)

* may 6.jpg (44.74 KB, 600x450 - viewed 167 times.)

* May 2015 Stage 6 Lonesome Dove Henry.jpg (130.6 KB, 816x1056 - viewed 180 times.)
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Tall Dark Slim
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 04:05:52 pm »

Tuco,
This problem was "solved" by western 3 gun. The problem with W3G was is the amount of steel needed to make it happen. This was cost prohibitive and time/effort prohibitive. The CAS shooters are accustomed to simplistic stages from a setup standpoint which are then confounded into oblivion with a left-handed skip chambered whispy sweep. Smiley

I am good with moving and shooting with all of my guns safely. I am afraid that the same is not true for some of the other folks out there wearing cowboy boots living out a dream. I'm a young competition shooter that can hit my footmarks at speed. It's an easy rewrite to the SASS rules to let us shoot into and out of positions and  their ready conditions for the shotguns are nice though. Those that can will and those that can't won't...or they'll be DQd and the time saving on the stage for the shotgun load will be noticed by all. However, seeing as CAS is a privately owned thing like idpa, you will likely not see these changes.

Best,
Slim
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TUCO-the-ratt
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 08:02:52 am »

Slim,

I have gradually come to understand your point. At the conclusion of a safety meeting we had where all the rules were read aloud AND it was emphasized a few times to not pull your revolver out of the holster (except in the safe area,loading table, or on instruction from the RO) that's the FIRST thing one older shooter did upon the conclusion of the meeting in order to empty his revolver of snap caps. CAS is a firearm handling/firearm transition game, not a run and gun game and old dogs do not learn new tricks or run.

Western three gun would be fun but I can see it would be a huge chore to set up also the nature of loading/unloading the cowboy guns is a time burner as it is. Resetting targets on each run would use a lot more time and create possible down range safety issues. It is what it is. I'll shoot cowboy for pure fun and IDPA/USPSA for realistic gunfight competition fun. 
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2016, 10:28:26 am »

I have created a lot of matches over the years for my CAS club. The Wizard of Oz and Inglorious Bastards were 2. I like movement in them. Lateral is the easiest, carrying your sg to engage multiple targets from multiple positions as you use your other guns. I have also used a .22 stage rifle or pistol so the shooter has to use the bad guys gun.  Downrange is good too, using the rifle targets as pistol targets after you move close enough. I also shoot the pistol targets with a rifle by alternating rifle- pistol.- rifle. We have several fronts that allows us to shoot from a window or door. I use cardbord targets from across the card table. Clays are good too if they're close enough. You have to be careful with movement with a sa revolver as the shooter will have cocked the gun out of reflex before he's moved. Easy to get a bunch of p's if not dq's. While I like small targets, too many misses is a sign of a not too good stage. A good stage should not be a memory game, bullseye match or a footrace but something in between. Remember who's shooting your match, cas is overrun with old codgers who can't count, move or see very well. You cannot even the field with a target array. The A shooters will always rise to the top. Even confronted with a tough knockdown they will grab their 'hot' read normal loads to knock it down. Be creative. Have fun. Think outside the box.
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Shooter's Meeting (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Camille Eonich)  |  Topic: Stage design « previous next »
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