Author Topic: Hot loads in Cattleman  (Read 46895 times)

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2015, 06:55:18 PM »
Rather than repeat myself scroll down to "STAND BY FOR A RANT" and look at my post and the comments by a lot of knowledgeable
shooters. Condensed version is the .45 Colt cartridge or gun was not designed to be a "magnum" anything.  But when loaded with a 230 grain bullet and a case of compressed FFFg HOLY BLACK it is about as magnum as you will ever want to touch off at arms length, and I guarantee it will do the job on the receiving end at a reasonable distance.
Calmly and respectfully submitted
Bunk

  But you stated in your original "rant" on July 21 that it was and is a magnum. I think what you're forgetting is not all of us just dink at metal targets set up at arms length with our revolvers. Some of us use them for tasks that require a little more power.

  I guess what I don't understand is why to some, such as yourself, it's perfectly alright to stoke a 45 Colt case full of black powder and run a 250 gr. bullet at, say 900 or whatever fps, but to duplicate this load with smokeless powder at the same pressure is somehow careless. Or to exceed the original "power" of the 45 Colt at current SAAMI pressures, or in some cases below is likewise throwing caution to the wind.

   Do you drive the tires on your car at the speeds they were designed for 100+ years ago?

   Help me understand.

  Likewise calmly and respectfully submitted.

 

Offline wildman1

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2015, 03:24:59 AM »
  But you stated in your original "rant" on July 21 that it was and is a magnum. I think what you're forgetting is not all of us just dink at metal targets set up at arms length with our revolvers. Some of us use them for tasks that require a little more power.

  I guess what I don't understand is why to some, such as yourself, it's perfectly alright to stoke a 45 Colt case full of black powder and run a 250 gr. bullet at, say 900 or whatever fps, but to duplicate this load with smokeless powder at the same pressure is somehow careless. Or to exceed the original "power" of the 45 Colt at current SAAMI pressures, or in some cases below is likewise throwing caution to the wind.

   Do you drive the tires on your car at the speeds they were designed for 100+ years ago?

   Help me understand.

  Likewise calmly and respectfully submitted.

 
Don't confuse pressure and velocity they are not the same. Some powders will give much higher pressure spikes with less velocity than others. wM1
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Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2015, 08:55:30 AM »
Don't confuse pressure and velocity they are not the same. Some powders will give much higher pressure spikes with less velocity than others. wM1

  Yes, as stated in the second paragraph of the 14th post.

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #23 on: Today at 10:16:46 AM »

Offline wildman1

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2015, 11:09:32 AM »
I believe you are referring to the 13th post.
  But you stated in your original "rant" on July 21 that it was and is a magnum. I think what you're forgetting is not all of us just dink at metal targets set up at arms length with our revolvers. Some of us use them for tasks that require a little more power.

  I guess what I don't understand is why to some, such as yourself, it's perfectly alright to stoke a 45 Colt case full of black powder and run a 250 gr. bullet at, say 900 or whatever fps, but to duplicate this load with smokeless powder at the same pressure is somehow careless. Or to exceed the original "power" of the 45 Colt at current SAAMI pressures, or in some cases below is likewise throwing caution to the wind.

   Do you drive the tires on your car at the speeds they were designed for 100+ years ago?

   Help me understand.

  Likewise calmly and respectfully submitted.

 
But you are not going to duplicate a black powder load with smokeless powder and have the same pressure and velocity. The pressure spike in smokeless loads is much higher. wM1
WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2015, 01:30:36 PM »
I believe you are referring to the 13th post.But you are not going to duplicate a black powder load with smokeless powder and have the same pressure and velocity. The pressure spike in smokeless loads is much higher. wM1

 No, 14th post when I stated that low velocity doesn't necessarily mea low pressure and high velocity doesn't necessarily mean high pressure.

 I'm not sure exactly the point you're trying to make in your posts. You mentioned twice pressure "spikes" which I assume to be a reference to maximum chamber pressure. Pressure is pressure no matter when the "spike" as you call it occurs.

   I would love.to see your references regarding BP pressure and velocities vs. SP pressure and velocities.  Where did you find BP load data with pressure information?

     Take a look at Hodgdon's on line data for smokeless powder in a 45 Colt, specifically their new CFE powder. They list 45 Colt data that actually exceeds the original ballistics yet generates only around 10,000 psi.

Offline wildman1

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2015, 03:37:24 PM »
No, 14th post when I stated that low velocity doesn't necessarily mea low pressure and high velocity doesn't necessarily mean high pressure.

 I'm not sure exactly the point you're trying to make in your posts. You mentioned twice pressure "spikes" which I assume to be a reference to maximum chamber pressure. Pressure is pressure no matter when the "spike" as you call it occurs.

   I would love.to see your references regarding BP pressure and velocities vs. SP pressure and velocities.  Where did you find BP load data with pressure information?

     Take a look at Hodgdon's on line data for smokeless powder in a 45 Colt, specifically their new CFE powder. They list 45 Colt data that actually exceeds the original ballistics yet generates only around 10,000 psi.

The point I'm making is that smokeless powder has more pressure for a given velocity than BP. One example BP with a 230g bullet and a velocity of 1486fps has a CUP of 10,905. Win 231 with a 230g bullet and a  velocity of 975fps has a CUP of 13,800. If you don't believe it you can look it up the same as I did. wM1
WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.

Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2015, 04:00:00 PM »
Good Day Cholla Hill Tirador

OK, my friend  let’s get on the same page of the reloading manual. The .45 Colt AT ONE TIME was the biggest, baddest most powerful cartridge handgun that was in production. Note that the 1847 Colt Walker revolver was the most powerful hand gun produced until the .357 Magnum was introduced in 1934.

But now there are handguns in calibers that make the .45 Colt look puny. If I have a “task” that requires a heavy caliber hand gun you can bet that it will not be a gun that is slow to load, a cartridge of only moderate power, and  of an antique design.

In fact, according to Clint Smith “A hand gun is what you use to fight your way to the rifle or shotgun you should have stayed closer to.”

I see no problem using a smokeless load that duplicates the BP load from long ago and stays in reasonable pressure limits for a single action design. I have in the past shot through my Gen 1 guns many cans of Hercules Unique using (if my memory serves me) 8 grains and a 230 lead cast bullet, so don’t get the idea that I am anti nitro powder for reloading.

My project in the morning is to load 100 rounds of .45 Cowboy Special with Trail Boss and a 180 grain bullet. A load that is easy on my arthritic wrists and has a PF of bout 120 (book value velocity) and knocks targets down with authority. I also need to load 100 rounds of .45 Colt cartridges with Trail Boss under a 200 grain bullet for my ’73 rifle. Getting ready for the match next Saturday

While I no longer drive over 100 mph I do use good new quality tires. I also live in an air conditioned house with running water and an inside toilet even though I do live 15 miles from town. I am not interested in going back to the “good old days” which were not all that good.

When I was kid on our ranch we had to use an outhouse and there was running water (cold) only in the kitchen. Kerosene lamps and for light and an ice box with ice we hauled from town to keep the milk cool. It was not until after WW2 that the LCRA ran an electric line to the house. The good old days were not that great and I do not want to relive them.
Hold Center

Bunk

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2015, 05:43:04 PM »
The point I'm making is that smokeless powder has more pressure for a given velocity than BP. One example BP with a 230g bullet and a velocity of 1486fps has a CUP of 10,905. Win 231 with a 230g bullet and a  velocity of 975fps has a CUP of 13,800. If you don't believe it you can look it up the same as I did. wM1

 ???  1486 fps? Where are you finding the BP pressure info? I did a little looking but didn't turn up much. 

  I think if you'd do a little looking, you'll find much of today's powders operate pressures lower than most realize.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2015, 02:49:28 AM »
  Well, I did a little research and turned up some pretty interesting stuff! One thing I totally forgot was Europe's version of SAAMI which is C.I.P. They require all firearms be tested with proof loads before they are put on the market. Proof loads used for revolver cartridges produce chamber pressures 30% greater than the C.I.P. maximum. Their pressure standard for the 45 Colt 16,000 psi (15,945 to be exact) as opposed to SAAMI's which is 14,000. This means, for example, that Uberti's revolvers chambered in 45 Colt are proofed with loads generating right at 21,000 psi. I find it comforting that the European imports are designed and produced with a little wiggle room with regards to their chamber pressure standards when compared to those of SAAMI.

 Here's an interesting tidbit from a article by Randy Wakeman http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm in which he states:

  Longer barrels are required for proper combustion and the resultant gas expansion with heavier charges, contingent on grain size. Pressures have ranged from 5,000 psi for shotguns to 25,000 psi or so for rifles. The notion that blackpowder can "ONLY" produce low pressures is incorrect, as England's Able and Nobel were able to generate pressures of over 100,000 psi in their experimentation in the 19th Century.  Hmmm.....

 Another very informative column by good ol' Paco Kelly. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/black_powder.htm Skip down to the section on the 45 Colt and check out the black powder loads he tested. Interestingly, one of them netted a chamber pressure of 13,600 psi (Again, so much for "ONLY" low  pressure with black powder)while propelling the 255 gr. lead bullet 961 fps. Jumping over to Hodgdon's site, we find they list three smokeless powder loads that run a 250 gr. lead bullet similar velocities to those in Mr. Kelly's column while generating slightly lower chamber pressures. I find pretty much the same thing in Accurate powders data.

 

Offline T J B

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2015, 01:46:19 PM »
I am still trying to figure out why this post has taken so long to answer your question YES  and for others info SAAMI was started so the manufactures could protect themselves from law suits and we all should know what that means many are saying stay within saami specs yet these same shooters  reload ammo and shoot it in their guns and gun Manufacturers state in their owners manuals NOT to use reloaded ammo. . Use common sense . If your tires say inflate to 32 psi do you panic if you find them at 33 or 34 ?.
 So load and enjoy become knowledgeable with your sport and enjoy and when you read all these so called safety warnings think lawyers and money.

Offline Davem

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2015, 01:58:50 PM »
Well to all....sort of why I asked.  I had, and still have, a heavy barrel K frame Smith & Wesson for 38 spl. The frame is exactly the same as my S & W Model 19 in .357 magnum.
   So I got thinking.... Gee, I wonder if the frames are identical in strength. Would Smith and Wesson really give one frame a different heat treatment than the other? I was wondering if they all got the same.  If they did then you could "Hot Load" a 38 special.
   I cut across a .38 special. case and a 357 Mag. case and looked at the web area- same amount of web. The only difference appeared to be the longer length on the 357 Mag case- making it impossible to load in a 38 special cylinder/chamber.
   There is an old book on reloading by Phil Sharp. In this reloading book he had proto type hot loads that pretty much turned a .38 special into a .357 Magnum. He used a lead bullet and seated this bullet out 1/10" longer. Phil Sharp is the guy that basically invented the 357 and these were his  early loads.  If you put the same 357 powder charge in a 38 case and seated the bullet to a 38 AOL you'd blow up the works.  Only in a 357 OAL would this work. Sharpe went on to state that as soon as the bullet exited the case there was actually more space since the longer 357 case wasn't taking up room so the pressure was less. 
   Well, I worked up about half way on my 38 heavy barrel but no more. I contacted Smith & Wesson. All the CS reps knew nothing and were litigiously oriented. NO, No. NO.  I finally got a guy in the shop. He SAID the frames got different heat treatments.  Well, I don't think he was being honest but because that is what he said, you CANNOT take the risk. So I backed off.
    Why do all that????
    Cuzz
   Well, we all know about the old Colts with iron frames and that heavy smokeless charges will blow them up or blow out the side of a chamber.  So the factory stuff is loaded to shoot in all SSAs- as I understand it. Elmer Keith said in a new Colt SSA with a steel, heat treated frame you could do better but my thought was clones cost a lot less than the Colts and that price differential might be due to heat treatment, etc. In other words I was wondering if the clones could stand a heavier charge.  I think there was or is a Uberti in 44 mag but in looking at the photo the frame seems larger- not a real clone.
    Well on the clones, on a lead bullet, was wondering what weight bullet and velocity was a SAFE load and at the top of the chart on energy.
   The easiest thing on earth is to say "It's all dangerous" No talent needed for that.   Anything worthwhile however would be appreciated, such as, "So and so DID analyze the steel frames on XYZ and ABC  clones and YES the steel and heat treatment CANNOT take more than standard loads, that's why the manufacturers can sell them for a price much less than the Colt SSAs.  In Mr. so and so's testing he tried hot loads and had the frames stretching after only a few hundred rounds".  That's good information that's definitive.  Trouble is, on such information I've tried to find an answer and there just doesn't seem to be much information.
   I hope I'm not sounding like a guy with a ramrod up his back. I have no problem with guys just wanting to use factory ammo. If that is the limit, then I'm ok. I guess I was thinking a 45 Colt along on the trail for possible hunting, a slight bump that was safe might be worthwhile.
   Again, it is pretty technical stuff and a definitive answer would entail some sort of actual testing- probably hasn't been done.
 

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2015, 06:29:29 PM »
Greetings my Dear Netizens -

just for fun to be ornery for the sake of conversation, I am going to throw out a few things for you all to kick around.

Firstly, all the comparisons are very nearly comparing apples and pineapples , IMHO .

I believe the important thing to remember here is that NOBODY has yet duplicated the PRESSURE CURVES of BP using smokeless. They have come close, but I have not seen that Holy Grail yet. There are recipes using smokeless that are safe, but that's still not exactly the same. We must consider  Pressure spikes, Max pressure, and pressure curves, which are all important and different. If you don't understand the differences, the why's and the wherefores, then you can be heading for trouble. In this area we are talking some serious rocket math.

- On the one hand someone brought up good old Elmer - but remember he  managed to blow up quite a few .45 Colt 1873 SAA's using only BP.

- On the other hand, we have folks talking about hotrodding revolvers., including  a .38 spl of unknown provenance.

Davem - Yes I know all the "but but's"  - The important thing is to know the steel used and heat treat involved for both the frame and the cylinder. Without that, one is shootin' in the dark - you might get lucky and you might not. I have had S&W Mod10's from different years and things vary. Also, Heat Treating and better steel for Magnum cylinders  does cost more money, and the bean counters are not gonna spend more for a lot of 10,000 cop .38's if they don't have to. Remember, those suckers gentlemen are shaving pennies to make more profit.

Last (or first?) we have folks discussing maximum pressure  in both CUP and PSI, which btw are not the same. In The Bad Old Days they tested loads in a fixed, closed pressure barrel with a Lead or Copper crusher, then physically measured the crusher and "calculated " or "extrapolated" a pressure number. It said nothing about the pressure curve, only the the pressure max.

Now they have some fancy piezo-electric sensors connected to computers ; they can put the sensor anywhere on the barrel or cylinder they can reach, and plot graphical pressure curves over time. There's more to it than that, but that's the basic stuff. With this newer instrumentation, they can determine a new value of PSI ( which only vaguely resembles CPU or LUP max pressure ) and thus determine Safe and SAAMI loads.

Then we have the uncontrollable variables such as atmospheric pressure, temperature, various different components , age of components, different firearms, etc etc.

Unless and until one puts together a similar ballistics lab ( or takes their loads down to the Labs and pays for testing) one can only guess at how closely one's load actually matches the recipes.

As a result , here on CAS City, we stress following the recipes for safety and happiness.

If you wish to vary from them, or hotrod anything , you are on your own and there are other websites more suited to those discussions.

Sorry if this comes across as a wet blanket, but... we don't want folks blow crap up.

yhs
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Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2015, 11:01:40 PM »
Well to all....sort of why I asked.  I had, and still have, a heavy barrel K frame Smith & Wesson for 38 spl. The frame is exactly the same as my S & W Model 19 in .357 magnum.
   So I got thinking.... Gee, I wonder if the frames are identical in strength. Would Smith and Wesson really give one frame a different heat treatment than the other? I was wondering if they all got the same.  If they did then you could "Hot Load" a 38 special.
   I cut across a .38 special. case and a 357 Mag. case and looked at the web area- same amount of web. The only difference appeared to be the longer length on the 357 Mag case- making it impossible to load in a 38 special cylinder/chamber.
   There is an old book on reloading by Phil Sharp. In this reloading book he had proto type hot loads that pretty much turned a .38 special into a .357 Magnum. He used a lead bullet and seated this bullet out 1/10" longer. Phil Sharp is the guy that basically invented the 357 and these were his  early loads.  If you put the same 357 powder charge in a 38 case and seated the bullet to a 38 AOL you'd blow up the works.  Only in a 357 OAL would this work. Sharpe went on to state that as soon as the bullet exited the case there was actually more space since the longer 357 case wasn't taking up room so the pressure was less.  
   Well, I worked up about half way on my 38 heavy barrel but no more. I contacted Smith & Wesson. All the CS reps knew nothing and were litigiously oriented. NO, No. NO.  I finally got a guy in the shop. He SAID the frames got different heat treatments.  Well, I don't think he was being honest but because that is what he said, you CANNOT take the risk. So I backed off.
    Why do all that????
    Cuzz
   Well, we all know about the old Colts with iron frames and that heavy smokeless charges will blow them up or blow out the side of a chamber.  So the factory stuff is loaded to shoot in all SSAs- as I understand it. Elmer Keith said in a new Colt SSA with a steel, heat treated frame you could do better but my thought was clones cost a lot less than the Colts and that price differential might be due to heat treatment, etc. In other words I was wondering if the clones could stand a heavier charge.  I think there was or is a Uberti in 44 mag but in looking at the photo the frame seems larger- not a real clone.
    Well on the clones, on a lead bullet, was wondering what weight bullet and velocity was a SAFE load and at the top of the chart on energy.
   The easiest thing on earth is to say "It's all dangerous" No talent needed for that.   Anything worthwhile however would be appreciated, such as, "So and so DID analyze the steel frames on XYZ and ABC  clones and YES the steel and heat treatment CANNOT take more than standard loads, that's why the manufacturers can sell them for a price much less than the Colt SSAs.  In Mr. so and so's testing he tried hot loads and had the frames stretching after only a few hundred rounds".  That's good information that's definitive.  Trouble is, on such information I've tried to find an answer and there just doesn't seem to be much information.
   I hope I'm not sounding like a guy with a ramrod up his back. I have no problem with guys just wanting to use factory ammo. If that is the limit, then I'm ok. I guess I was thinking a 45 Colt along on the trail for possible hunting, a slight bump that was safe might be worthwhile.
   Again, it is pretty technical stuff and a definitive answer would entail some sort of actual testing- probably hasn't been done.
  

 Since you're evidently a fellow who enjoys asking "Why?" as do I, I strongly suggest you pony up for a subscription to loaddata.com as well as a subscription to Handloader magazine. Absolutely invaluable information in both places for people who enjoy reading about handloading and inferring...you know, figuring things out on their own. You can also contact Brian Pearce who may be the most knowledgeable revolver man in the US, through Handloader, and ask him about loads for your heavy frame S&W .38. (Psst...I already know what he's going to say)

 In that same vein, we're to believe S&W takes this pile of frames and heat treats them to this hardness, then another pile of the identical frame and heat treats to a different hardness, then they do the same thing with a bunch of identical cylinders. Then they keep them all separate and designate one pile to be chambered in .38 Special and the other in 357 Magnum. Does it sound a bit silly when it's actually typed out? Does to me.

 To be continued....

 

Offline T J B

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2015, 05:08:58 PM »
The frames are treated the same it is the cylinders that get special attention .I have been there and watched.

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2015, 06:06:05 PM »
The frames are treated the same it is the cylinders that get special attention .I have been there and watched.

THANK YOU SIR!
I always love to hear eye witness accounts from those with boots on the ground :-)

yhs
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Offline Drydock

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Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2015, 11:47:52 PM »
Here we go….

I believe the important thing to remember here is that NOBODY has yet duplicated the PRESSURE CURVES of BP using smokeless. They have come close, but I have not seen that Holy Grail yet. There are recipes using smokeless that are safe, but that's still not exactly the same. We must consider  Pressure spikes, Max pressure, and pressure curves, which are all important and different. If you don't understand the differences, the why's and the wherefores, then you can be heading for trouble. In this area we are talking some serious rocket math.
 

  If you truly stress following published recipes as you state, then NONE of this matters. Right?  The average Joe Handloader need not concern himself with unpublished phenomenon such as pressure spikes, maximum pressures, etc. All we need to do is follow published data and let the real experts handle the details.

- On the one hand someone brought up good old Elmer - but remember he  managed to blow up quite a few .45 Colt 1873 SAA's using only BP.

This is one, and countless variations thereof, I have read over and over and over, and frankly took as gospel, until I read Mr. Keith’s book Sixguns about a year ago. Lo and behold, after reading ALL 308 pages, Ol’ Elmer had blown up but a single revolver, yes one, with the use of handloads, in 1925. He was using the long discontinued DuPont #80 powder. The only other incident involved a  Colt SA in 45 Colt which was loaded with 35 grs. of BP and a 300 gr. resized rifle bullet. Even then, he didn’t “blow up” the revolver, rather, a case head gave way which summarily blew off the loading gate. He himself owed this to a weak cartridge case head (Sixguns; pp. 129).
  If you have references to the “quite a few” revolvers Mr. Keith destroyed, I’d love to see them as I thoroughly enjoy his writings. Have you read any of his books? I've found this request usually results in the chirping of crickets...  ;)

- On the other hand, we have folks talking about hotrodding revolvers., including  a .38 spl of unknown provenance.

 “Hotrodding” must be taken into context. This evening after completing my domestic duties (mowing the yard), I drifted out to the shop and cobbled together a couple dozen cartridges for my little 4 ¾” Uberti  45 Colt. Drifting further out behind the shop I chronographed them and found the 250 +/- gr. lead bullets ran a peppy 941 fps. Now some might bite their nails and sweat profusely while pointing a trembling finger at me schreeching “You’re hottrodding your revolver!” Well…no. Yes, the loads from a ballistic standpoint exceed 45 Colt factory stuff by quite a margin, but did not exceed the published data for the powder (Nobel Sport Vectan)

 Regarding the .38 Special, unless you live under a rock, there has for quite some time existed loads that are specifically for “Heavy Frame Guns Only”, the “S&W 38/44”, etc. If one hasn’t the grey matter to understand what this means, he should probably sell his reloading equipment and take up a safer hobby. Seriously. This would include data in the book referenced by Drylock; Loading the Peacemaker: Colt's Model P- by Dave Scovill. Also this would also include data for the 45-70. Many sources (Lyman for example) list three levels; Trapdoor, Lever Actions, and Ruger #1.

  In deference to your fondness for eyewitness accounts and boots on the ground, I’ll refer to my personal favorite revolver, a  4 ¾” Uberti in .44 Special.(A search will turn up pictures of it on this forum) It’s a little difficult to say exactly how many (non-CAS) rounds I’ve fired through it except by my use of large pistol primers. All told, I’ve fired somewhere between 3500 and 4000 rounds through it (owed in no small part to the fact that I have my own range and sometimes shoot daily). This does NOT include my CAS loads running bullets at slingshot velocities. Anyhow, of these I’d conservatively estimate 1000 of them have been the old Skeeter Skelton load (my favorite hunting load) of (Google it if you want to know) grs. of Unique under a 255-260 gr. lead SWC, a load in excess of SAAMI pressure specifications. I last fired this revolver a few days ago, practicing on my 50 yd. gong. Tight and accurate as ever…none the worse for wear for the “hotrodding to which it’s been exposed.

 Sorry if I came across as a grouchy, aging ba$t@rd, but that's what I am.  ;D

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2015, 01:41:40 AM »
Here we go….

 Sorry if I came across as a grouchy, aging ba$t@rd, but that's what I am.  ;D


Aaaaand we're off!  No worried My Good Cholla, I find that you are more of a fiesty discussionist, who is equipped with a chrony .
I am willing to bet you also have a micrometer and know how to use it to determine pressure signs, as opposed to the avg joe looking at primers.....

We stress following the recipes because we do have noobs popping in and asking
 (figurtively) " I just bought all this crap now teach me reloading while I hold my breath"
   -and-
 (literally) " I can't find any Trail Boss, so can I just substitute the same amount of Red Dot?"

Here we try to help the average guy with average "CAS" load issues , or stuff like it. I expect there are other better forums elsewhere that handle the more lofty esoterica ( no offense intended ).

I have read Elmer's books, and also ancient reprints of his articles. ( I have also George Nonte's , Ed McGiverns, some of Charles Askins, Bill Jordens, most of Skelton's works, but few of the actual pioneers of hand loading as I find them particularly dry; and I have found the pioneers' letters to the Rifleman to be a bit too chock full of "testing to failures" for my tastes - but they had little lab equipment at the time.) Back to Elmer, If I remember correctly ( and I may be mistaken) in  his letters ( or books?) a couple of incidents stick in my mind
 - he blew the top strap off a Colt .45 with a full case of 4F
 - he specifically said he switched to .44 spcl because he blew up too many .45 Colts due to the thin cylinder.

I do agree hotrodding must be placed in context - but the OP did specifically say in the title "Hot loads in Cattleman"
and if you mic your cases for your 941 fps load ( as I expect you already have) and find no signs of pressure issues, then Bob's Yer Uncle
and I suspect you will be a valued contributor here.

I am well aware of the .38-44 and I believe they worked the heat treat on those cylinders "special" - as you may recall the .38-44 factory loads weer specially marked. You may also recall the early .357 mag loads that made it famous (in the large frame Mod 27) which have since been reduced, then reduced again; and the Highly Valued and long Extinct Super-Vel loads - both of which led to the early cracking  of the K-frame .357 mag forcing cones....

The eye-witness account of a gent who reports he watched the same steel go into .38 and .357 cylinders; then watched the *different* heat treat for each should not be disregarded. I know way too many bubbas who reamed their .38 spcls to accept .357 's ....
But even Elmer stated one could safely hot-rod a J-frame .38 spcl and get away with it for a while due to the offset cylinder notch -
but that the foricng cone and frame will eventually suffer.

Last, I cannot stress enough the importance of pressure curves vs pressure spikes. It is most often pressure spikes that blow stuff up. Pressure spikes most often occurr when deviating from recipes. 

Reloading safely for Hobby shooting is a rather different animal than load development for experimentation. Those Who Know More Than I Do and who have labs to measure these things have stated that there are often high-end loads that "look just fine" but an even 5-10% increase takes you into catastrophic  KB areas. Those are interesting discussions but probably not for this forum.

I was also a fly on the wall following lengthy rocket surgeon esoteric scientifical debates about deviations in pressures, powder position issues, primer temperature issues, spead of wave fronts, and stuff that got into more calculus than I ever forgot. It was fascinating but again, not the sort of discussions for hobbyists.

So, Actually my Good Cholla, I believe you are fine , and there are a lot of good recipes that will safely make a good stout load with more giddyap than CAS may need and that's fine.

btw - you're not grumpy ....  :)
yhs
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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2015, 12:17:19 PM »
Here's a bit more food for thought
first read this "IMportant Message" which sets the rules tone for this Loading SubForum
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40688.0.html


 If you truly stress following published recipes as you state, then NONE of this matters. Right?  The average Joe Handloader need not concern himself with unpublished phenomenon such as pressure spikes, maximum pressures, etc. All we need to do is follow published data and let the real experts handle the details.


Actually if one reads the manuals such as "Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th edition" one will find
(as in most) "suggested starting gains" and "max load grains"  .  In "Modern Reloading" 2nd Edition by Richard Lee he gets more explicit:
"start grains" and "Never exceed" .   

So, basically, yes. Follow The Recipes and Let the Guys with the Labs work on exceeding "max loads"

"Hotrodding” must be taken into context. This evening after completing my domestic duties (mowing the yard), I drifted out to the shop and cobbled together a couple dozen cartridges for my little 4 ¾” Uberti  45 Colt. Drifting further out behind the shop I chronographed them and found the 250 +/- gr. lead bullets ran a peppy 941 fps. Now some might bite their nails and sweat profusely while pointing a trembling finger at me schreeching “You’re hottrodding your revolver!” Well…no. Yes, the loads from a ballistic standpoint exceed 45 Colt factory stuff by quite a margin, but did not exceed the published data for the powder (Nobel Sport Vectan)


It looks like you found a nice peppy load, but I do not see where you  are trying turn your Uberti .45 Colt in a .44 mag . If these loads are safe in your revolver, then Bob's Yer Uncle. But they may or may not be in another fellows pistol. That is the problem.
And without the lab, we really don't know the pressure curves/ spikes do we ?

In deference to your fondness for eyewitness accounts and boots on the ground, I’ll refer to my personal favorite revolver, a  4 ¾” Uberti in .44 Special.(A search will turn up pictures of it on this forum) It’s a little difficult to say exactly how many (non-CAS) rounds I’ve fired through it except by my use of large pistol primers. All told, I’ve fired somewhere between 3500 and 4000 rounds through it (owed in no small part to the fact that I have my own range and sometimes shoot daily). This does NOT include my CAS loads running bullets at slingshot velocities. Anyhow, of these I’d conservatively estimate 1000 of them have been the old Skeeter Skelton load (my favorite hunting load) of (Google it if you want to know) grs. of Unique under a 255-260 gr. lead SWC, a load in excess of SAAMI pressure specifications. I last fired this revolver a few days ago, practicing on my 50 yd. gong. Tight and accurate as ever…none the worse for wear for the “hotrodding to which it’s been exposed.

I am glad they are working well for you in your gun . It's important to remember the differences betwtixt the .44 spcl and the .45 Colt, which is why old Elmer switched to them.

It is also important to remember that both greenhorns as well as hivernaughts come here and the message we want the folks to take to heart is be safe

Published "never exceed" loads mean that , and for a good reason. If one understands what "proof loads" are for, one does not count on the Wiggle Room. "Pushing The Envelope" is for Test Pilots, and this forum is really not for the Test Pilots - but it looks like you found the experimentor's websites already.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: if you want to do 100 mph on your own track, more power to ya! But please don't do it in a 65  zone

yhs
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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2015, 12:23:04 PM »
I am still trying to figure out why this post has taken so long to answer your question YES  and for others info SAAMI was started so the manufactures could protect themselves from law suits and we all should know what that means many are saying stay within saami specs yet these same shooters  reload ammo and shoot it in their guns and gun Manufacturers state in their owners manuals NOT to use reloaded ammo. . Use common sense . If your tires say inflate to 32 psi do you panic if you find them at 33 or 34 ?.
 So load and enjoy become knowledgeable with your sport and enjoy and when you read all these so called safety warnings think lawyers and money.


My Good TJB - If I might offer a minor correction, a better comparison might be
"when  your tires says never exceed 45 psi you better listen"
yhs
prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of


Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
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and
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