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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  1911 & Wild Bunch Shooting (Moderators: Jefro, August)  |  Topic: M12 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: M12  (Read 3394 times)
PJ Hardtack
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M12
« on: July 02, 2015, 02:29:54 pm »


I decided to use one of my M12's this season instead of a '97.

I've got two in 28"MC, one in 30" FC. Don't know If I have the heart to lop off a barrel to cylinder bore. The local 'smith who put screw in chokes in my wife's '97 isn't working any more.
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Will Ketchum
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2015, 07:25:18 pm »

Buy a new barre, cut it offl and replace one.

Will Ketchum
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Dusty Boddams
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 07:49:38 am »

 Grin PJ, I know at least 7 or 8 top competitors that run there model 12s with the factory barrel length. With the minimum target distances set at 7 and most 8-10 yards the longer barrel not only doesn't hurt,it might help. Capt.sam Evans won overall at winter range WB this past year shooting a 26/28? Inch gun. Both my main guns are 23/24 inch because they both had cutts comps on them. You could try one of yours as it is and see if you like it or take your rattiest one and cut it back to what you want. I also have one cut to 18.5 that I bought that way but it feels kinda whippy compared to my others. I think you are really going to enjoy shooting the mod 12 in competition.  Dusty Boddams
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August
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 09:02:44 am »

I run my Model 12 with the original, 28 inch barrel and have never felt any disadvantage doing so.  It's a pain to pack in the car, but it is never a problem during a match.

Most of us desire a muzzle heavy shotgun for Wild Bunch, and a longer barrel definitely helps with that.

There was a guy on our posse at EOT with a "Trap" model that had a 30+ inch barrel.  He was doing just fine.  We had one stage where you had to run through two doorways in a building --  the long model 12s were no more of a problem than the shorter guns.

There are many myths in CAS, and the desirability of short barreled guns is one of them.

p.s. With regard to screw-in chokes, not all m-12 barrels are thick enough to accommodate the conversion.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 10:13:58 am »

Thanks for the feed back!
None of my M12's are beaters. In fact, one has a lovely figure in the butt stock. One is almost new.

As for short barrels, I was recently at an event where the shotgun targets were "A" zone size behind a steel shield. The open choked shotguns were hooped. My 28" SXS had screw in IC and MC barrels - no problem. I've noticed that short barrel guns tend to swing fast, perhaps too fast, causing shooters to miss.

Only problem I've had with my long barrel shotguns is the need to step back from windows to reload and bumping into an RO. I've given up warning them I'm going to do this and usually once is all it takes to convince them to get the hell out of the way.

I was in a sporting goods shop once and a guy was showing off a M'97 Black Diamond trap gun he had just inherited. He intended to do a chop job on the barrel until his buddies convinced him he had a keeper as it was. That woulkd have been sacrilege.
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August
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 10:52:04 am »

Buy a new barre, cut it offl and replace one.

Will Ketchum

Will, sadly, the chamber bushing on a Model 12 is machined to work with one barrel, and one barrel only.  To "install" a new barrel requires seating new bushings (one in the barrel and one in the receiver), back boring the bushings to chamber dimensions with the "new" barrel attached, then reaming the cartridge seat with the barrel in place.  The barrels on Model 12 Winchesters are eccentric relative to the receiver, and require hand fitting of the bushing to the barrel and receiver.  The reamers (there are three of them) required for the job cost more than most of us have paid for our Model 12s, and, therefore, "switching" barrels is not a practical option.

Additionally, the friction ring in the receiver would have to be adjusted for each barrel.

It would take several hundred dollar bills to re-barrel a Model 12.  And, it is not a home-shop job by any means.
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2015, 03:55:34 pm »

I run my Model 12 with the original, 28 inch barrel and have never felt any disadvantage doing so.  It's a pain to pack in the car, but it is never a problem during a match.

Most of us desire a muzzle heavy shotgun for Wild Bunch, and a longer barrel definitely helps with that.

There was a guy on our posse at EOT with a "Trap" model that had a 30+ inch barrel.  He was doing just fine.  We had one stage where you had to run through two doorways in a building --  the long model 12s were no more of a problem than the shorter guns.

There are many myths in CAS, and the desirability of short barreled guns is one of them.

p.s. With regard to screw-in chokes, not all m-12 barrels are thick enough to accommodate the conversion.

I'm glad someone else says that.  Cool Cool  I have been spouting off about NOT CHOPPING shottie barrels ever since I dropped in here! My best matches ever were with 30 in. full choked barrels on '97s. I have never had a problem moving around with full length barrels.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2015, 05:39:03 pm »

Looks like I'll be quite happy with my 28" M12! When I first came into CAS, my shotgun was a 30" FC '97. I was accused of being a "gamer". Because I did so much clay busting with it, I got pretty good at it. Then I bought a classic Ithaca Flues model and the '97 stayed home.
The seller said he would not sell it to me if I was going to chop it. I never will.

Once saw Robert Stack interviewed about his career as a celebrity Skeet shooter. He said that it still bothered him about the number of classic L.C. Smith, Parker and other quality guns they butchered to 26" cylinder bore for skeet.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 03:00:59 pm »

No worries, mate, no feelings hurt here.

I'm just happy that there is at least one aspect of the shooting sports that is attempting to remain 'pure' insofar as the gun types allowed. Remember - the premise of the event is the movie. throwing it wide open, you'd have to call it something else.

I've got a Mossberg 590A1 and my wife has a Rem Tactical 20 ga we use in Modern 3-Gun. I'm quite happy NOT to see such guns in a CAS event. Cheap way in for a shotgun is to buy a Norinco and beat the hell out of it!

The gun requirements are pretty liberal (IMHO), allowing 'modern' gun mods and use of two hands.

You can always find a group that goes "Outlaw", permitting the use of ANY and ALL guns of the era - Mauser Broomhandles, Lugers, Colt DA's, SxS's, etc. Then you'd have to accommodate FMJ bullets, etc.
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Dusty Boddams
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 06:09:40 pm »

HJ, I don't know where you're at but a lot of local clubs that shoot WB have an open class that is used by new competitors to get there feet wet, so to speak . They will usually accommodate any pump shotgun,any sass legal rifle and any 1911. A competitor usually shoots it once or twice and then goes all in with the correct guns but it does givE a chance to see if you like it. If you do I would recommend a model 12 and of course it has to be 12 ga.  Dusty Boddams
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Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 08:04:43 pm »

Nothing to add in the shotgun quest ....

but I like to chime in where you asked "  I realize a Winchester M12 was in the movie but weren't the 1911s used in the movies all Colts? "

the correct answer ... no Sir ... there several Star Model B in the "Wild Bunch"  here's one in Pike's hand.

there were Model 10 S&W's  and Enfield No.2 revolvers

and Harrington & Richardson Topper Shotgun single shot ...
 .


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* 601px-WBSGa.jpg (58.14 KB, 601x245 - viewed 189 times.)
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Jefro
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 08:39:46 pm »

HJ, I don't know where you're at but a lot of local clubs that shoot WB have an open class that is used by new competitors to get there feet wet, so to speak . They will usually accommodate any pump shotgun,any sass legal rifle and any 1911. A competitor usually shoots it once or twice and then goes all in with the correct guns but it does givE a chance to see if you like it. If you do I would recommend a model 12 and of course it has to be 12 ga.  Dusty Boddams
Howdy HJ, what Dusty said. Come on out and give it a try, if no Open category there are plenty of folks that will let you use one of their shotguns. There are still a bunch of nice M12 and 97 around for a good price. Good Luck Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy

ps; I say hack 'em Shocked......I like mine cut at 22" Grin Just had to throw that in for Sir Charles Wink
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Galen
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2015, 09:31:11 am »

Will the Remington model 10 ever be accepted for Wild Bunch competition?
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Jefro
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 12:38:58 pm »

Will the Remington model 10 ever be accepted for Wild Bunch competition?
Howdy Galen, no I don't think they will ever consider it. Not sure if that is the model, but one of the early Rem pumps was considered to be a "Widowmaker" Shocked . Plent of Model 12 and 97 to choose from.......Good Luck Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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sass # 69420....JEDI GF #104.....NC Soot Lord....CFDA#1362
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Galen
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 05:32:01 pm »

I believe the widow maker was the Winchester model 11.
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DeaconKC
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 07:55:45 pm »

If you ever need a Model 12 or 21 worked on, these guys bought all the parts when Winchester cleared them out. They are fantastic gunsmiths and super nice folks too!
http://wrightsgunsmiths.com/wrightsgunsmiths_004.htm
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  1911 & Wild Bunch Shooting (Moderators: Jefro, August)  |  Topic: M12 « previous next »
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