Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 20, 2017, 12:24:47 pm

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Longbranch (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Silver Creek Slim, Camille Eonich)  |  Topic: Cowboy rifles 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Cowboy rifles  (Read 5017 times)
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« on: May 27, 2015, 10:46:16 pm »


I see a forum for SAA replicas and for shotguns of the cowboy days but no forum for cowboy rifle replicas.  Am I missing it or is it non-existant?  I'm interested in an 1873 but there are so many out there I don't know where to start looking.
Logged
Major 2
"Still running against the wind"
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10290


Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 11:11:03 pm »

" no forum for cowboy rifle replicas"
Huh  Scroll down a read a bit further

Unless I miss your meaning...here are 4 boards for Cowboy rifles....
Granted 2 are not main match , but the 73 is there and in every configuration.... Henry and 1866 (check)

a search will glean 92's of different flavors, if that floats your boat , even some stuff of the Colt Burgess replica  



1860 Henry
The 1860 Henry Board is for anyone interested in all aspects of the history of and shooting that damn "yankee rifle that you load on Sunday and shoot all week". The discussions can also include "The Improved Henry, the 1866 Winchester.
Moderators: Flint, Major 2

The Winchester Model 1873
The Winchester Model 1873 board is dedicated to the history, shooting, and / or collecting of the Winchester Model 1873 and the modern replicas.
Moderator: Major 2
   
The Winchester Model 1876
The Winchester Model 1876 board is dedicated to the history, shooting, and / or collecting of the Winchester Model 1876 and the modern replicas of the Winchester Centennial model.

BROW
Buffalo Rifles of the Old West
This is a place to meet, ask question or share knowledge and experiences about long range shooting matches and about the rifles used in the "old days" to harvest buffalo hides.
Moderator: Delmonico
Logged
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2015, 08:17:20 am »

I saw those, Major.  I'm talking about one forum where ALL makes and models are discussed like the shotgun forum.  A place where I can see and read about Uberti, Cimmaron, Taylor, Winchester, Henry, Buffalo Arms and all the ones that I'm not aware of.   One stop shopping.
Logged
Hambone Dave
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2015, 09:29:49 am »

I don't want a forum where all 'rifles' are mixed together. I would have to weed thru too many posts just to get at the posts for the one-and-only grand 1874 Sharps.
Logged
Coffinmaker
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4259


« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2015, 10:56:33 am »

Ah, I see it now.  Let me help.  Since your new and all ..............

The Toggle Link rifles (73, 66, Henry) sold by Cimarron, Taylors, EMF, Buffalo Arms, Are ALL made by Uberti.  Only one new player in Toggle Link rifles, and it's made in Japan.

Single shot are an entirely different game, as are "Big Bore."  Seems if your fingers get a mite sweaty with all that shopping, just drop back inna pool for a mite and refresh  Grin

Coffinmaker
Logged
wildman1
American Plainsmen Society
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2556



« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2015, 12:05:56 pm »

I had a cousin who usta like to fight, if ya started gittin the best of him he would lower his head and charge like a bull. I don't remember how many times he ran into a tree or a wall or some other solid object. I do remember very distinctly the day he charged and I stepped aside and he put a huge dent in the drivers side door of his dad's car. I also remember the whuppin he got from his dad for it.  Roll Eyes wM1
Logged

WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
Pit Mule
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 97



« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2015, 12:34:16 pm »

What would you like to know about the 1873 replica? Just ask and you will get lots of answers & opinions.
Logged

fortdesmoinesrangers.com

Fort Des Moines Rangers
Cedar Valley Vigilantes
Zen Shootists
Nebraska Territorial Rangers
Member: The Naughty Posse
SASS #29220 ( Classic Cowboy )
NRA Life
SASS ROII
NRA RSO
Don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak, & notice more than you realize.
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015, 01:41:11 pm »

All good answers but I don't know what I want.  I just know when I see it I'll know.  I'm looking for a nice lever gun in .44-40 or .45 Colt and I've seen mentioned the 1866 and 1873 as good ones to start with.  I know that Uberti is the manufacturer and Cimarron and Taylor (along with maybe a few others) are importers but finish the guns out differently.  I also know there are going to be pro's and con's regarding the different makes and models.  Without bothering everyone asking a million questions, I thought it'd be nice to have a place to look at posts on all of the rifles out there.  If I knew what I wanted then it would be as simple as going to the areas for that particular weapon.

Am I making any sense? Undecided
Logged
Major 2
"Still running against the wind"
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10290


Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 04:34:57 pm »

not really .....

what is your game ?  are you planning WAS ...SASS, NCOWS , Plinking, hunting, wall hanger    Huh maybe

best suggestion , type in the long gun of choice on U Tube.... watch the videos !

you have  Uberti's  73's, 66's and Burgess , Marlin's  , Rossi's 92's , Miroku 73's 92's  , Chiappa 92's , Pedersoli 73's   & Spencer Carbine by Armi Sport

now you have list of sorts , surf the web ....read the reviews ....and make your choice. Good luck, it can be fun journey  

Logged
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2015, 06:18:00 pm »

not really .....

what is your game ?  are you planning WAS ...SASS, NCOWS , Plinking, hunting, wall hanger    Huh maybe

best suggestion , type in the long gun of choice on U Tube.... watch the videos !

you have  Uberti's  73's, 66's and Burgess , Marlin's  , Rossi's 92's , Miroku 73's 92's  , Chiappa 92's , Pedersoli 73's   & Spencer Carbine by Armi Sport

now you have list of sorts , surf the web ....read the reviews ....and make your choice. Good luck, it can be fun journey  



Right now I'm just getting my feet wet.  I plan on attending some local events this summer and seeing what CAS is all about.  I'm in the Kansas City, Missouri area and there's a shoot coming up at Jesse Jame's homestead in Kearney Missouri.  i think I might hit that and just watch.

I'd like to have a rifle that's well made, affordable, period correct, legal for the different sanctions and something that can be slicked up without a lot of problems.  I like the Uberti's 1873 Half Octagon in .44-40.  I think Marlin only has the 92 or 94?  My local gunshot has a Henry rifle that they said is legal for CAS but I don't recall the model.  It's not a golden boy but looks like one.  The receiver is a little different than the .22 mag golden boy I have and it's not the original Henry rifle.  It's about half the price of the Uberti's but I think the Uberti's look nicer.

I've also checked out the Chiappa's and the Rossi's.  I've got an older (early 60's) Rossi model 62A that I still shoot but haven't really looked at any of their new rifles.  The others I'm not really familiar with at all.  I'll have to spend more time online.
Logged
Major 2
"Still running against the wind"
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10290


Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2015, 06:50:17 pm »

I don't know the percentages.... but the Uberti 73 is probable well up there ahead of the others, The Marlins & 92's are distant behind.
Uberti's 1873 Half Octagon in .44-40 is a fine piece, read up on that one watch a u tube,

In Kansas City you have both SASS & NCOWS.... 

The Henry BIG Boy is legal for SASS , but it not well suited for the game .... It is not Legal for NCOWS nor is the Miroku 73's (short stroked) or for that matter any Short stroked 73, 66 or 1860 Henry.
Miroku makes 73 & 92 both are SASS legal...

The Uberti Burgess is Legal for both,  but at the same price or so with the 73's , it's just slower.

Spencer's are 7 or 8 shot depending on caliber so, there is a major disadvantage to the 10 round stages.

 
Logged
Bibbyman
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 278


« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2015, 07:25:08 pm »

Popularity varieties from club to club.  At our club the 73 may have an edge over Marlin 94 but not by much. Probably a bigger third 73s, then Marlins and the rest something else - 92 clones, Colt Lightning clones, 66s, etc.
Logged
olered
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 76


« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2015, 06:21:43 am »

Take a look at the 44-40 John Bange has in the classifieds. Nice 73 package he is offering.
Logged
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2015, 08:15:01 am »

I am leaning heavily toward the Uberti's.  I've been completely happy with their revolvers.  I have looked at the Marlins but they don't make an 1873 that I'm aware of. 

The rifle that John Bange has is very nice and looks like it is worth the money but I'm wanting a shorter barrel in the 18 to 20 inch range and the accessories are something I'm not interested in.  I also like the case hardened receiver and I don't think his is although it could be just the lighting in the photo.

Right now I'm in the information gathering stage and need to get my reloading going before I purchase a rifle.
Logged
Good Troy
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 861


GAF Grand Muster 2017


« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2015, 08:35:40 am »

Are you looking for a "historically correct" '73?  If so, and you want a short barreled firearm with a case-hardened reciever, then you will be looking at what is called a "short rifle".  They have 20" barrels, a case-hardened reciever, and a crescent style butt plate.  I have a "regular" rifle in 44-40 with a 24" barrel, and these same features made by Uberti.  I'm very pleased with how smoothly it operates.  The only issue I have with it is the crescent butt-plate.  It makes it a challenge to hold the rifle steady when cycling the action, as I have to cradle the stock in my arm pit.  The carbine, which was historically a blued reciever, if I remember correctly, has a 19" barrel and more of a shotgun styled butt-plate.  It can be mounted more toward the chest, and is easier for me to hold the firearm on point while cycling the action. 
Logged

Good Troy
SASS#98102
GAF#835
NCOWS#3791
SSS#638
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5813



« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2015, 09:58:49 am »

I concur with a '73 short rifle. I have an original rifle, cut back to 20" by the first owner eons ago, and it runs like a dream. The crescent buttplate sticks in my shoulder allowing fast (for me!) times.  I also use carbine butt plates, but have to cover them with a rough-out stock boot to make 'em stick. 

You can't make any speed at all if you drop the butt from your shoulder to cycle the action.
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Good Troy
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 861


GAF Grand Muster 2017


« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2015, 10:14:51 am »

Quote
The crescent buttplate sticks in my shoulder allowing fast (for me!) times.  I also use carbine butt plates, but have to cover them with a rough-out stock boot to make 'em stick. 

I guess part of my issues result from me being use to a carbine butt plate on my first CAS rifle.  I did have to go the route of a rough out boot, as it was a smooth brass butt-plate!  I've gotten better with the crescent.  I'll have to start a "rainy-week-end-project" and make a similar cover for the crescent....
And, I can relate to the statement....
fast (for me!) times...
Some shooters in our club are sub 20 secs for a stage.  Heck...It takes me 15 secs for the shotgun knockdowns on a good run! 
Logged

Good Troy
SASS#98102
GAF#835
NCOWS#3791
SSS#638
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2015, 10:53:39 am »

Yes on the historically correct 1873.  I've looked at and like the short rifle quite a bit but I also like the half octagon which has an 18 inch barrel but isn't offered in .44-40.  I've never shot a rife with a crescent shaped butt plate so I don't know if I'd like it or not.  It's not something I thought about until it was brought up. 

Logged
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2015, 11:09:35 am »

Has anyone heard of a Henry rifle with the model number of H011?  My local gun store has one in .44-40 that's brand new and supposedly legal for CAS.  I can't find anything on the Henry website when I search for that model.

EDIT* Ok...  never mind.  I found it.  For some reason I thought it was under a grand but it's over $2000 and out of my budget.  It's the Henry Original.

Logged
Major 2
"Still running against the wind"
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10290


Cracker Cow Cavalry


« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2015, 02:37:08 pm »

Yeah !  seems to me I have.....


 
Has anyone heard of a Henry rifle with the model number of H011?  My local gun store has one in .44-40 that's brand new and supposedly legal for CAS.  I can't find anything on the Henry website when I search for that model.

EDIT* Ok...  never mind.  I found it.  For some reason I thought it was under a grand but it's over $2000 and out of my budget.  It's the Henry Original.


I apologize if this to much reading

Henry Repeating Arms Co. M1860 Rifle                          Review by:  Roger Ragland - NOV. 2013

    I began to experience the excitement of a child on Christmas morning and found myself quickened of step as I approached Signal Zero Supplies, my friendly Federal Firearms Licensed dealer.
Earlier in the day, I had received a letter that the Henry Repeating Arms Model 1860 Henry had arrived.
At my request, Mr. Anthony Imperato CEO of Henry Repeating Arms, had personally seen to it, their latest product was sent to me to review for the National Congress of Old West Shooters and a gun test article for the Shootist the National Magazine.
    There before me was the box with the HENRY brand Logo, and a label "Henry Original Henry" Model H011 MADE IN THE USA.
I carefully opened the box with anticipation, and my first reaction as I parted the wrappings ... Pards they got it right!
I was first drawn to the figure of the Walnut stock, and a snug fitting black cloth sleeve encasing the receiver.
The barrel is roll engraved, Henry's Patent Oct.16th.1860 Cal. 44/40 Henry Repeating Arms Bayonne N.J. U.S.A. in one line.
     

The Gun....
     I have the opportunity to compare the new Henry Repeating Arms H011 Henry with 3 of Uberti's Henry offerings.
In a side by side visual tour, I noted the H011 butt stock was thicker at the comb. I also noted the rise from the wrist was taller and further rearward from the Uberti models. I compared the silhouette to some high resolution photos of several original Henrys, and found the H011 stock is very close in the originals shape and profile.
 The H011 has a somewhat different balance point; I believe this due to both the thicker butt and perhaps the density of the flame burl walnut. I found the balance point pleasing allowing the Rifle to shoulder and point very nicely.
In comparison the Uberti balance point seems to be somewhat muzzle heavy.
The wood itself is eye catching, the likes of fine Presentation rifles and shotguns; it is simply stunning with a satin oil finish.
The brass butt plate has the trap door and is bored to except a cleaning rod assembly, though it's not included.
 The rear sight is a ladder design for both manufacturers. The H011 has a square notch where the Uberti sight is V notched, all have a German silver front sight thought the H011 sight it seems ever so slightly thicker. The square notch makes for fine sight picture over the OEM Uberti V sight with my eyes. The function of the sight is smooth & light and stops at each detent setting.
The H011 is chambered in 44/40 and cycles nicely. The action is smooth though bit on the heavy spring side. 
Barrel is nicely polished and blued, fit & finish is quite good, as it is on the three Uberti offerings in this comparison.
The H011 receiver is highly polished and finished brightly.

Henry H011  Action : Lever                                                                                                                                                   Caliber : 44-40                                                                                                                                                                      Barrel Length : 24 1/4 "                                                                                                                                                      Capacity : 13 +1                                                                                                                                                                 Length : 43  3/4"                                                                                                                                                                 Weight : 9.03 lbs.                                                                                                                                                                 Finish: Blued                                                                                                                                                                      Number of Grooves: 6 Twist: Right

Uberti Henry  Action : Lever                                                                                                                                                   Caliber : 44-40  & 45 Colt                                                                                                                                                      Barrel Length : 24  3/8 "                                                                                                                                                      Capacity : 13+1                                                                                                                                                                  Length:  43  3/4”                                                                                                                                                               Weight: 9 lbs.                                                                                                                                                                       Finish: Blue                                                                                                                                                                        Number of Grooves: 6 Twist: Right                                                                                                                                               
At the range...

    The rifle arrived in padded shipping carton wrapped in brown dry silicone paper. The first order of business as I normally do with a new gun was to, of course check if it is unloaded then clean and lubricate.
Generally, I use a product like Break-Free, Gun Scrubber or the like.
I liberally flood the actions nooks & crannies and allow it to drain. I’ll swab the barrel a few strokes and follow that with Gibbs Lube and a final clean patch down the barrel.
I realize it is over kill, but it’s a tradition that has served me well.
    So with the gun cleaned and joined by NCOWS members Bill “Cherokee Bodie” Cunningham and Capt’n’ John Holmes, I arrived at the range with the three Henry’s.
The new HRA H011 and two Uberti Henry's, a military model and an Iron frame model. Bill also brought his main match Uberti Henry 44/40. The photo op was obvious, but it also gave us the chance to compare the shooting qualities of both makes.
    I had at my disposal, three boxes of different factory loadings and some hand-loaded black powder loads by Cherokee Bodie (Cracker Cow Cavalry).
The Factory brands are Black Hills, Ultramax, and Magtech, all are Cowboy lead loading's courtesy of Capt'n' John also of Cracker Cow Cavalry.
The Black Hills is a 200 Grain RNFP, The Ultramax is also 200 Grain RNFP and the Magtech is flat nose 225 Grain pill. The Black Powder loads are full case (no filler) 32 grains of 2 FF topped with a 200 grain SPG lubed flat nose lead bullet.
     We set a large torso silhouette out at 100 feet, and decided to shoot offhand as this is the normal position for most NCOWS style action.
We loaded the Black Hills offering first and each of us fired three go a rounds. Each of us went for a different area on the target. Bill shot center mass, John a head shot and I, well let’s say "below the belt".  The factory loaded Black Hills happened to be some older stock, the price tag still affix stated $24.95 for the box of 50.  A price not seen in these parts in some years, well below the current going retail rate.
I guess it was at least 8 years old. The H011 handled this product with a reasonable grouping of about 3.75 for the three shooters, Remember off hand at 100'.
I suppose I should mention the weather was a breezy 76 degrees and threatening rain, the wind was directly into our face. Next we loaded the Ultramax; we had the best results and the only misfire with this brand. I shot a 3" group and experienced the only misfire. I re-chambered the well dimpled round, to confirm it was not a light tap, the round failed again, and it also failed in the test Uberti. Lastly we loaded the Magtech 225 Grain, I expected these rounds to print a bit lower but in fact held POA at 100’; John posted a 4" group which I duplicated. Overall, I'd give the nod to the Ultramax, but in honesty, off hand in a breeze nothing was all that scientific or methodical.
     Next we moved to Berm # 7 which is a covered 6 store front town walk , here we had the 8"  knock down targets set up at 36 feet. Loading 10 rounds (Ultramax) we shot what might be a standard stage for a rifle. Bill went first and hit 8 of ten shooting high twice. John and then I followed shooting clean. John unused to the Henry shuffle stumbled on the last round. 
The H011 cycled smoothly with no other hiccups.
    Time for the Holy Black, we loaded Bill's hand loaded 32 Grain 2FF reloads , the H011 digested these just as well as it had the factory loading's. Bill was deadly; first he cleaned the targets with his own Henry, and then repeated with the H011.  . John and I both were clean but Bill was faster, the man knows his loads. We had grand time choking smoke and the Guns never balked aside from the one faulty Ultramax round. As the clouds and rain closed in we gathered our impressions of the new Rifle....

In conclusion:
    We noticed the action seem to get even smoother as we shot it. The gun shoulders, points and sights very nicely. The H011 digested and ejected every round I ran through it including the reloads.
On examination of the brass, the firing pin dimpled the primers well and just tick off dead center.
I did not witness any blow-by into the receiver from the soot of the black powder while cleaning the rifle.
    Henry Repeating Arms has produced a very nice replica of the Original 1860.                                      I'm happy to see the Henry return to be made in the good old USofA. I hope it is a trend and we'll see more of the old iconic firearms brands that were deemed obsolescent or abandoned return to us.
Tyler B. Henry would be proud... welcome home!

Update:
 I felt I had left a bit of my review on the table...So the next day, I traveled to the Public Range in Broward Co. stopping in at The Ammo Attic in Melbourne on the way, I picked up a box of Magtech Cowboy 44/40 200 Grain RNFP and some  Day Glo Targets . The Magtech RNFP we used the day before was 225 grains, so this was still another round to experiment with.  I borrowed a leather bench rest and set my paper target at 50 yards on the rifle range. I loaded just 5 rounds at a time, so to not impede the magazine follower. From a seated position, I set the ladder sight at 50 yards and taking my time, carefully aimed and squeezed off a shot. The H011 shot centered and about 3 " low, but I had 4 shots in rather tight with one flyer. I reloaded and adjusted my hold and position a couple of times, till I had some nice groups. My eyes don't really focus like they once did, but I could see the day-glow green 6" bull-eyes, 3 1/2 “groups seemed pretty common.
On the Bench, I could hold steady and was rewarded with my best 2 3/4 " 5 shot Group, with 2 close enough to create a ragged hole. I think I'll be happy with that.... Oh! And it was a little breezy and a steady drizzle/rain all day, the covered facility was most welcome.

 



Thanks to:
John Holmes 
Bill Cunningham
and
Signal Zero Supplies
St Cloud, Florida 407-891-9136
www.SIGNALZERO.BIZ

and special Thanks to:
 Mr. Anthony Imperato CEO of Henry Repeating Arms
59 East 1st Street
Bayonne, NJ 07002
http://www.henryrepeating.com/ ;


* DSC00764.JPG (138.2 KB, 640x480 - viewed 146 times.)

* IMAG0722 (640x360).jpg (81.43 KB, 640x360 - viewed 145 times.)
Logged
half-hitch
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 132



« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2015, 04:17:28 pm »

Yeah !  seems to me I have.....


 
I apologize if this to much reading

Not at all.  It's this 856 page book that came with the reloading kit that I don't much care for.  Only 812 pages to go.   Undecided

I enjoyed reading about it.  I just purchased a Golden Boy in .22 mag about a month ago and I really like it for just plinking.  When I was checking out the H011 at my local gun shop the first thing that I noticed was that's it's a fairly heavy rifle.
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Longbranch (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Silver Creek Slim, Camille Eonich)  |  Topic: Cowboy rifles « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.065 seconds with 21 queries.