Cylinder Timing -- Pawl Adjustment

[August]

When fitting a new pawl, I've always first timed the primary tooth of the pawl to get cylinder uplift after the bolt is fully retracted.  Then, I've proceeded to adjust the secondary tooth to work in harmony with the primary tooth as the cylinder carries up. 

However, this may result in insufficient lift relative to the sear engaging the trigger.

What is the correct order for timing the two teeth and what should get attention as the process proceeds?  Should the primary tooth and secondary tooth be done in successive trials?

I hope the question is clear.  Thanks for your help.

[Pettifogger]

When fitting a new pawl, I've always first timed the primary tooth of the pawl to get cylinder uplift after the bolt is fully retracted.  Then, I've proceeded to adjust the secondary tooth to work in harmony with the primary tooth as the cylinder carries up. 

However, this may result in insufficient lift relative to the sear engaging the trigger.

What is the correct order for timing the two teeth and what should get attention as the process proceeds?  Should the primary tooth and secondary tooth be done in successive trials?

I hope the question is clear.  Thanks for your help.

What does this mean?

[August]

What does this mean?

i.e. secondary tooth not, now, tall enough to carry the cylinder all the way to battery -- before trigger and hammer engage at fully cocked.  Or, gun cocks before it locks.

Does that help?

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[Coffinmaker]

This may sound simplistic,  but in most cases, I leave the second step alone.  Just time the first step so the bolt is fully retracted before the cylinder starts to turn.  Bolt rise will stop the cylinder and the trigger sear can be adjusted accordingly.

Coffinmaker

[rifle]

I said to myself ," Rifle what would YOU do",? 

I said ,"well I'd see what the old pawl did in relation to the other parts and then compare the old one to the new one to see if the new one had what it took to correct things right leaving the other parts the same or would I have to change some things about the old parts or what".

I'd know why I thought the pawl needed changed in the first place. I'd remember the primary has it's job and the secondary has its job and the primary works the first part of the action cycle and the secondary works the last part of the action cycle.

I'd know how the other parts worked in relation to the old pawl so that could tell me if I had to work the new pawl a certain way or work several parts the same time or not.

That means I'd be lookin at and workin at the primary and the secondary at the same time.

I'd start with why did I change the pawl to begin with and compare the old one to the new on and see if that would tell me what need done to the primary and the secondary and then go to checkin that out and then....remember what an old timer told me once.  He told me,"don't go anywhere until you know where you're going".  Ya gotta know where you're going and then go from there.

I'd be lookin at all the old parts right off the bat too remembering they can be worked too or changed to new ones.

So....I'd be workin all the parts at the same time as well as the primary and the secondary pawl hands and hope I didn't go nuts.
,

[rifle]

I was thunkin again. Sometimes that's good and other times I begin to wonder if I should explore my thoughts in therapy.

Anywhooooo....I remembered I always take the cylinder and put the new pawl up to the ratchet in the rear to see how the new pawl fits approx. to where it's going to leave off the primary and need the secondary to take it from there. See if the secondary has limited room like it seems to need some of it removed maybe.  It isn't unheard of  for folks to get the wrong part or get a defective part.

If I'm going to make my own new pawl I hope to have the old one to get some,"compare", to study. If not I make a new one with too much length to the primary and not enough space between it and the secondary so there's some metal to work.

Having the old one and knowing why I thunked the pawl needed changed out in the first place gives a reasonable place to start.

I always know that the bolt can be made to come out the cylinder notch earlier(get the leg closer to the cam on the hammer or put a new cam on the hammer) and the trigger can be changed out or remade or welded up and filed to shape for length or whatever......to get the magic folks mention when describing an action job that was done.

A cap and baller revolver is easy since there's only one prong to the hand. Moving the bolt to get closer to the cam means that possible blow back can affect how close the bolts leg can be to the cam without running afowl of the weird thing about a gun moving the cylinder just as it's firing. A single action cartridge revolver doesn't have to worry about blow back so that simplifies getting the bolts leg closer to the hammer cam to affect the timing.

Anywhoooo...there is some latitude to fitting a pawl when it's realized the trigger can be worked and the bolt can be worked and even the trigger bolt spring can be worked to help things along.

I should look in this book I have about gunsmithing Guns of the Old West. Seldom ever looked at it. It may have a simplistic plan fer pawls. I'll go look fer the book. I've heard of a book by someone named something like Kunnderson or something like that. That book is supposed to be real good about showing how to work single actions.

[August]

Thanks Coffinmaker and Rifle.  Your comments are very helpful.  The essence of my question is: in what order to you address the various timing issues?  Or, how do you think about the various aspects of timing the cylinder?

There are three "issues" in timing the pawl, as I understand them.

1. Bolt must retract before cylinder begins rotation (Primary tooth of pawl -- right?)

2. Distance between the primary and secondary teeth must allow the pawl to stay in contact with ratchet and not bind.  right?

3. Secondary tooth must carry cylinder to lock-up -- without binding due to overtravel.  right?


On a recent short-stroke conversion, I timed the primary pawl and then had to remove material from the secondary pawl to prevent binding while the cylinder turned.  All was good until the end of the cycle where, now, the secondary pawl doesn't carry the cylinder to lock-up because of the adjustment to the distance between the teeth. 

Inertia carries the gun to lock-up without fail, but the timing isn't exactly correct.

Assuming my characterization of the three elements of timing the revolver is accurate, what order should they be approached in?

[rifle]

If you need a sequence then start somewhere. Primary or secondary or secondary and then primary.

Test the primary first to see if the bolt gets out of the way soon enough. "Leave things alone and go to the seconary".

If you try the seconary and the binding happens see if you can at least get the pawl seconary under the ratchet tooth, Turn the cylinder by hand or whatever. Then see where the secondary gets you at the end of the cycle. If it can't bring the cylinder around enough to lock the pawl is made wrong OR.......

The top of the primary may be hitting frame and stopping the pawl. There should always be enough seconary since overdraw can be used to at least see if the secondary can get the cylinder around enough.

Once you try the primary and then the secondary by themselves you have an idea of what they do in relation to the other parts in the timing so you thunk bout where to go from there. Make the right decision and things go well and make the wrong decision and things don't go well. 

Get an idea of what the primary and the secondary individually are doing before you change anything.
There can be a mydrid of things to consider.

Does the primary move the cylinder too soon for the bolt to get out and if that's true can it be shortened without affecting the way the secondary gets the ratchet and moves the cylinder to battery? Does the bolt need worked or changed to get itself out the cylinder notch sooner or the primary need shortened?  If the primary is shortened will that raise the position of the secondry to hit the ratchet and not go under the tooth?  If the secondary is shortened will that mean it can't turn thr cylinder around enough? In the end of the cycle does the trigger hit full cock before the cylinder hits battery or after? Have to consider everything before changing anything.

If there is binding with either the primary or the secondary that doesn't mean either is too long. They can bind from hitting the edge of the ratchet by getting between the ratchet and the frame or bind because the pawl is too loose a fit in the hammer making a wobbly workin pawl. The primary can be hittin frame and stopping everything so the secondary can't get the cylinder around. The ratchet teeth can be too deep cut so the pawl just goes forward too far and gets outside the recess for the pawl and hits frame that way. It can hit frame inside the recess or outside of it. Depends on the gun.

Take the Richards Mason for instance. The first run had the edge of the pawl hit frame so the pawl didn't go too far into the ratchets that were cut too deep. If the edge worn or the pawl was too wobbly the pawl went too far forward and hit the top of the recess instead of staying in and going behind it so the gun locked up before the end of the cycle. Later cylinders had the ratchet cuts less deep so the cylinder kept the pawl back in enough instead of the pawl needing to ride the edge on the frame to stay in.

Sometimes if the action binds you give it a little extra force and then take the gun apart to see where the little marks are to see where it binds. Some times Prussian Blue or machinists lay out die is used to see where things bind. Sometimes the bluing is removed and die used or cold blue put on to see where it binds.

It ain't a bad idea to look in the gun with the parts out and the cylinder in to see where the pawl hits tooth and then take the cylinder out and place the pawlon it like it would be in the gun and see how it fits the ratchet.

Sometimes the hammer and pawl and cylinder are the onlyparts in the gun and you look down the pawlchannel to see how the pawl is fitting or to see how the loose of the pawl in the hammer oor the pawl recess affects things.

The post of the pawl may need enlarged or the hand made to stay closer to the hammer by attaching it permanantly to the hammer with a new longer post and a slight countersink on the far side to peen it so the pawl stays close and stays on the hammer.

Remembering the bolt can be made to come out the cylinder notch sooner by getting the leg closer to the hammer cam by filing on the bolt where it lays on the frame or changing the hammer cam or heating the bolt leg and bending it some to get closer to the hammer cam and then reharden it and re-temper it. Heat it red and quench in oil then put it in a tin cup covered in oil and light the oil on fire and let it burn with the bolt in there till the oil is pretty much burned up. The oil burns at a good temp to temper the spring steel.

The trigger can be shortened or welded and made longer and rehardened and tempered to adjust the end of the action cycle.

I guess the sequence would be to "look at everything(all the parts) first" then decide what to do. Know why the pawl needed changed in the first place. Know if the other parts were the fault instead of the pawl. All that stuff. Guess when people say the gun tuned well had the gunsmith work his "magic" it means looked at everything first.

Anywhoooo...if a person adjusts the primary so the bolt gets out the cylinder notch before the cylinder tries to turn the fault may not be the pawl length but may be the fault of the bolt or the hammer cam. Not a good idea to start at the primary and adjust that according to the other parts since they may be worn too much or adjusted improperly in the first place. A person can look at a bolt and see when it moves to assertain whether or not it's working fast enough or proper enough. If the hammer needs moved a long ways to move the bolt then the hammer cam or the bolt are worn.That makes the amount needed to be taken off the primary of the pawl way too much of it gone to be letting the bolt get out of the notch before the cylinder wants to turn. Ends up with a short pawl. That makes the secondary advance too much too.

I understood the initial question Hombre. I just have a time explaining the answer. Sometimes the saying,"easier said then done", seems backwards. 

That book I mentioned that may be a help is by Jerry Kuhnhausen. "Colt Single Actions".   I ordered one yesterday. Back ordered of course. Should be interesting what's in there.  Supposed to be a really good book.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...without running afowl{sic} of the weird thing...

I ran 'afowl' once chasing a chicken in a barnyard.        


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/run-afoul-or-foul-of

[rifle]

Well Fox Creek.....ifin ya don't understand "Ohio Backwoods Hillbilly Technolangauge" which has no dctionary ya can't attempt to correct someone like me. You may seem like a "chicken running around with it's head cut off ".

Anywhoooo....thanks fer the English lesson. Saved me again from embarrassment and ineptitude.  Yer my mentor and my rock and without you behind me I'd soon perish from my sheer stupidity. Saved my life again. In the battle of life we fight fer one another.

If our danged pawls would stop muckin up we wouldn't have to try to do all this danged typing.

I got that book on single actions by the honerable J. Kuhnhausen and without running any fowls in the barnyard I'll bring a thread bout what the master says about installing new pawls.

Anyway it's the hierarchy to your intelligence that allows you to see my mistake in spelling in the first place.  It must be a sorrowful journey thru life being so far above others in the IQ department.

Don't worry Buddy I'll stick with ya and try to help you adjust. I'll try to inject some "group therapy" into our discusions bout pawls and balls and triggers and hammers and all to explore yer need to be such a perfectionist. It must be such a hellish existance being so far into the universe of a genius.

I'll try to help you find yer sense of "stupidity" so as to normalize somewhat and bend down to my level where all is wonderful and happy all the time. First lesson...give up on the "Cheerios" as your "Breakfast of Champions" and eat "squirrel gravy on tatters" every morning.

Besides all that.....yer sense of humor seems to always get a laugh outta me.
The last thing I expected to find here was a correction in spelling. Yer alright Hombre. Can you imagine what a hellish nightmare it is fer me when "I run afowl of the weird thing" and trying to sort out pawls and all at the same time so  my cylinder won't advance while my cap&baller revolver is firing and trying to figger out why my cap&baller revolver has two prongs on it's hand in the first place? Thanks fer yer intervention Buddy.Saved me again.
Still I'm left to wonder....how well are YER pawls adjusted? 

[wildman1]

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