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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Powder Room - CAS reloading (Moderator: Professor Marvel)  |  Topic: what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields  (Read 19773 times)
River City John
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« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2016, 10:39:13 pm »

It was a Stuart. They should have brought the tank to the battle.
P.S. Stuart was the M3.

M3 was the first two models designation, primarily aircraft engines using High octane aviation fuel. With the M5 model switched to V-8 engines burning regular, plus other upgrades. Larger engines necessitated the raising of the upper rear deck, giving it a more box-like shape.

M5 Stuart[edit]
To relieve the demand for the radial aero-engines used in the M3, a new version was developed using twin Cadillac V-8 automobile engines and twin Hydra-Matic transmissions operating through a transfer case. This variation was quieter, cooler and roomier. Owing to its automatic transmission it also simplified crew training. The new model (initially called M4 but redesignated M5 to avoid confusion with the M4 Sherman[7]) also featured a redesigned hull with sloped glacis plate and driver's hatches moved to the top. Although the main criticism from the units using it was that the Stuarts lacked firepower, the improved M5 series kept the same 37 mm gun. The M5 gradually replaced the M3 in production from 1942 and, after the M7 project proved unsatisfactory, was succeeded by the Light Tank M24 in 1944.
(Above courtesy of Wikipedia.)

Many foreign versions were in service during the fifties and sixties.  The French M5A1s participated in the Indo-Chinese campaign until 1954, and the Portuguese ones (only three) served in Angola in 1967.
 (The Twilight Zone series is on Netflix, so now you've got me interested in the specific model. The M5A1 had a stepped back with raised rear, while the M5A3 had a straight line from front of glacis to rear.)

RCJ
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River City John
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« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2016, 11:39:38 pm »

Episode 112 "The 7th Is Made Up Of Phantoms"

It's an M5A3. Forgot that Warren Oates was in that one.



RCJ
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"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
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« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2016, 08:26:13 am »

Sir! I stand corrected on the the tank numerical designation. I still think they should have brought the tank to the battle M 3 or M 5.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2016, 01:16:39 pm »

National Guard is/was not issued ammo for their tanks while in Garrison.  Only issued when on annual training.  At least that's the way it use to be.

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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2016, 08:31:05 pm »

Episode 112 "The 7th Is Made Up Of Phantoms"

It's an M5A3. Forgot that Warren Oates was in that one.



RCJ


The National guard commanding officer and aid spotting the names of his three missing guardsmen on the Custer memorial.


C/O: "If they had taken thank, maybe they would have had a better chance."  
Aid: "Sir?"
C/O: "Nothing"

That was a spooky ending.   I have all 5 seasons on DVD.  My wife and I love them.


Anyway, the question of the makeup of the 7th Cavalry came up.  They were immigrants and men trying to get to gold, it was said.

Well, I don't know about them all being get rich quick gold finders, but I looked up the roll of the men who died in the 7th online a few years ago just out of curiosity.  One thing I noticed, if I recall right, was they about a third were made up of immigrants from Ireland and Germany and two thirds were made up of men from Northern states mostly in the Midwest, Pennsylvania and New York.    (I instantly remembered Ben Johnson's line from the John Ford movie She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, finding a 7th cappie with Cheyenne Indian feather attached and identifying the Indians as "...the same ones that whipped them Yankee soldiers with General Custer."  (an arrow whizzes by his nose and he takes off with a party of Indians after him on grand chase across Monument Valley eluding them by jumping a ravine.)    Seems, back then, the American army (or at least that part) was still, for the most part, the Northern army as reconstruction was about to end and most Southerners were still picking up the pieces rather than serving in the Army (which had been kind of the opposite before the war with Sec. of War Jefferson Davis' Second Cavalry in Texas).   I guess it wasn't until the Spanish American war that the North and South took up arms in the Army (whether volunteer or regular) to fight in Cuba and the Phillippines in 1898  
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2016, 09:56:10 pm »

I've been told by Confederate sympathizers that Lee surrendered the Army of Virginia, not the army of the CSA. In other words, the Civil War is ongoing.

One of most touching moments (of many) in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" was the funeral for the ex-Confederate Brigadier-General(?) who was serving as a Union Cavalry Corporal.

Ben Johnson asked for permission to drape the coffin with the "Stars & Bars" and it was granted out of respect for a gallant soldier. That is the way to heal old wounds.
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« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2016, 01:30:57 pm »

HOW ON EARTH???   DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING???   OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2016, 05:26:18 pm »

Brigadier-General Rome Clay
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2016, 09:42:00 pm »

The battle of "Little Big Horn" has everything to do with CAS firearms of the era we play.  Our roots, our history.

Canada provided a refuge for some of the combatants from the vengeance of the US Army and promised the Great White Mother they wouldn't do another "Custer" on our side of the DMZ. It would have been easy for them as our population was pretty scarce and the NWMP even scarcer.

HOW ON EARTH???   DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING???   OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2016, 11:43:59 pm »

What does the Battle of the Little Big Horn have to do with ..... "reloading??"  Not remotely related to "Cowboy Action Shooting" the game.

Not that it hasn't been a fun thread.  It's just way out there.  Way Way out there.

Coffinmaker

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pony express
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« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2016, 09:39:03 am »

What does the Battle of the Little Big Horn have to do with ..... "reloading??"
Coffinmaker



Hmmm.... It's kind of a stretch, but, since one of the Indian Scouts was supposed to have told Custer that there were "more Indians then you have bullets"





Therefore, to insure victory, they would have had to call a halt to the battle, gather up all the brass, and do some reloading!



Well, I said it was a stretch.....
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2016, 09:04:57 pm »

Now ..... That right there be FUNNY.

AS GAC looks over his shoulder ...... XO, call time out.  Send out the foragers to collect the brass.  We gotta reload our brass.  the rest of the Cavalry ain't coming!!!

Then was heard ....... Balls ..... Who's got Balls??  Doesn't anyone have Balls??  I'd sound retreat but some clown shot the bugler.  XO ... I THINK WE'RE SCREWED!!


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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2016, 04:32:11 pm »

I've been told by Confederate sympathizers that Lee surrendered the Army of Virginia, not the army of the CSA. In other words, the Civil War is ongoing.

One of most touching moments (of many) in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" was the funeral for the ex-Confederate Brigadier-General(?) who was serving as a Union Cavalry Corporal.

Ben Johnson asked for permission to drape the coffin with the "Stars & Bars" and it was granted out of respect for a gallant soldier. That is the way to heal old wounds.


I've heard (and agree) with your first paragraph.  Events in the past two decades have made it clear that...the Yankees and their allies are still shooting at us.  Only now, it seems more Northerners are on our side as most good decent Americans are not offended by all things Southern.   The best men in the Union army even during and after the war were disgusted at the Radical Republican and Abolitionist venom and efforts to wipe out the South and spit on even the graves of our dead.

Yes that was a very touching scene in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.  You even hear Dixie softly playing as the dying Trooper "Smith" speaks to John Wayne and Ben Johnson.   John Ford, in particular, was always good and respectful to the South in his movies.  In fact, I think a few years ago during the 150th Anniversary of the War, TCM narrator Robert Osbourne said that John Ford agreed to do the movie The Horse Soldiers with John Wayne with the understanding that the South would be treated fairly.    And so it was.  One of our favorite John Wayne movies.  (filmed not too far from where I live...in fact there is an old horse ranch down the road from me that donated some of the horses for use in that movie)

(BTW, just for clarification, the Stars and Bars is not the Confederate Battle Flag or Navy Jack.  The Stars and Bars was the first national flag of the Confederate States and was designed like the Flag of 1776 with a circle of stars on a blue field in the corner and white and red bars instead of stripes.    The Confederate Battle flag that we think of today was actually the Southern Cross or St. Andrews Cross with a Saltire and used in various colors, lettering, shapes in different armies in the Confederacy.  A lot of people get that confused)   
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Doug.38PR
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« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2016, 04:35:52 pm »

HOW ON EARTH???   DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING???   OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.

Coffinmaker

You know I'm not sure either.  I posted this quite a while ago and I can't remember if it got moved here by a moderator for whatever reason or I accidentally clicked the wrong link and didn't realize it was in the wrong forum until I posted it and it never got moved to somewhere appropriate.   In fact, you'll notice I never responded to anything until recently.  I seem to remember losing this thread as soon as I posted it and figured it was deleted long ago.  It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I saw it in the headlines generating discussion that I realized it not only made it but was still in talk.    In any event, it has generated some interesting discussion.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2016, 04:42:39 pm »

"I sang 'Dixie' while he died.
Whisky had robbed him of his Southern pride ..."

Line from a Dwight Yoakum song.
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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2017, 08:23:14 pm »

Funny, I'm probably going to be watching They Died With Their Boots on later this week.   It's funny how all the movies do Custer's last stand the same:  Custer and his men are all bunched together on an open plain, dismount and are huddled together with 4000 Indians circling them until all are dead.   From They Died With their Boots on in the 40s to Little Big Man in the 70s Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee made a few years ago.

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Buffalo Creek Law Dog
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2017, 09:26:07 pm »

Custer and his 5 companies ran out of ammo.  The spooked horses carried away their spare ammo.  The pack train never reached them.  Reno and Benteen had 24,000 rds of ammo because, they ended up with the pack train, plus what they already had on them.
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« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2017, 09:31:39 pm »

at this point what difference does it make?
Seems to me I heard that somewhere
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« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2017, 10:59:39 pm »

Yep, but I was hopin we wouldn't hear it here.  Tongue Roll Eyes Shocked
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2017, 02:45:54 pm »

I had my pet war-gaming computer (WHOPPER by name) run simulations of all the possible scenarios of the Battle of The Little Big Horn.  The result always comes up the same.  Custer gets wiped out.  The Indians ride off into the sunset.  The great White Father in Washington still runs all the native people off their land and Penn State loses the Rose Bowl because of two STUPID PENALTIES in the last two minutes.
The Titanic still ran into an Iceberg and sank.  No matter what, if you irritate a Skunk, the outcome will NOT be harmonious.  Roll Eyes

SO THERE!!

Coffinmaker  Grin
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Galen
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« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2017, 01:33:45 pm »

Custer should have called in the gunships! Or few F4's dropping naplam. Like the 7th did near Bong son.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2017, 04:02:53 pm »

Custer had a couple of Gatling guns in his train that he did not deploy.

They would have been of great service in a redoubt, making the position unassailable. But, they didn't think like that back then.

It took General Middleton to first use Gatlings in the fight against the Metis where allegedly, some RC Nuns were among the casualties.
The gunner was a Yankee Militia Officer from Connecticut, I believe. Howard, by name .... ? I'd have to refer to my library.
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« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2017, 10:15:46 pm »

Custer had a couple of Gatling guns in his train that he did not deploy.

They would have been of great service in a redoubt, making the position unassailable. But, they didn't think like that back then.

It took General Middleton to first use Gatlings in the fight against the Metis where allegedly, some RC Nuns were among the casualties.
The gunner was a Yankee Militia Officer from Connecticut, I believe. Howard, by name .... ? I'd have to refer to my library.

Custer didn't have the Gatling guns with him at LBH, he refused them at the mouth of the Rosebud as they would impede his march.  If he had taken them he would not have arrived at LBH as early has he did, as they had to criss cross the Rosebud creek many, many times between June 22 and June 24  slowing his advance.  Gatling guns were being pulled by condemned cavalry horses.  It was bad enough dragging a pack train.  Assuming he had them at LBH on the 25th, the terrain was against him.  Undulating ground, Hostiles popping up here and there at different levels would have rendered the Gatling guns useless.  If anyone could have used them it would have been Reno in the valley fight as it was on level ground.  But, he would of had to ford them across the LBH River which was in full spring flow. As I mentioned earlier, if they took the Gatling guns, the Hostiles would have departed LBH before Custer would have gotten there.

U.S. Army tactics of the day have shown that Gatling guns were good for attacking a hostile village on level ground, but, on undulating ground at different levels.........useless!  Basically, Custer and his 5 companies ran out of ammo.  The Cheyenne spooked the cavalry horses by waving blankets and blowing eagle bone whistles.  The horses left with the extra ammo.  The pack train did not arrive for Custer but, Reno and Benteen 4 miles away had the pack train with 24,000 rounds of ammo in a defensive position and survived (mostly).  The 7th Cavalry (12 Companies) at LBH suffered 51% casualties.
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« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2017, 12:52:47 pm »

What they should have had is them Hollywood six guns that shot all thru the movie without reloading. That would have changed things.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2017, 06:14:10 pm »

Custer didn't have the Gatling guns with him at LBH, he refused them at the mouth of the Rosebud as they would impede his march.  

Didn't say that he had them at LBH, did I? I said that he has them in his support train. Poor intel and recce set him up for his debacle along with terrain issues.

Great bein' an armchair general after the fact, ain't it? I got a pal in war gaming and he keeps asking me to get involved. He says it's an excellent way to learn something about tactics - with the benefit of hindsight, that is!
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I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne
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