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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Want to Load BP in My .44 Special 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Want to Load BP in My .44 Special  (Read 2734 times)
Cholla Hill Tirador
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« on: June 11, 2014, 10:56:58 pm »


 So I've been shooting CAS off and on for a couple of years now. I shoot .44 Specials and thought I might try BP in them. Currently I shoot a Cimarron 1873 lever, a 4 3/4" Uberti 1873 and a 7 1/2" Open Top.

  I'm a little apprehensive about the clean up and potential corrosion issues. The revolvers are no problem to tear down and clean, but gawd I hate the thought of disassembling the lever rifle after every shoot!

  I load a home-cast 170 gr. RNFP typically cast from WW's to a Bhn of 12-13. Are these bullets soft enough? Also I lube them with Scarlet Ceresin lube which is a little firm and requires heat. Will this lube work OK?

 How much BP would I need for a 650 +/- fps load out of my revolvers?

 Thanks in advance.
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Pettifogger
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 11:11:58 pm »

So I've been shooting CAS off and on for a couple of years now. I shoot .44 Specials and thought I might try BP in them. Currently I shoot a Cimarron 1873 lever, a 4 3/4" Uberti 1873 and a 7 1/2" Open Top.

  I'm a little apprehensive about the clean up and potential corrosion issues. The revolvers are no problem to tear down and clean, but gawd I hate the thought of disassembling the lever rifle after every shoot!

  I load a home-cast 170 gr. RNFP typically cast from WW's to a Bhn of 12-13. Are these bullets soft enough? Also I lube them with Scarlet Ceresin lube which is a little firm and requires heat. Will this lube work OK?

 How much BP would I need for a 650 +/- fps load out of my revolvers?

 Thanks in advance.


There is no "how much" like for loading smokeless powder.  BP is loaded by volume, the appropriate volume being enough powder to require 1/16 to 1/8" of compression when you seat your bullet.  (For real BP, the subs are a little different.)  The proper lube and how much depends on whether you are talking real BP or a sub.  It also depends on whether you are talking pistol vs. rifle.  A rifle requires more lube for real BP because the barrel is longer and you don't want to run out of lube before the bullet exits the barrel.  The subs are much more forgiving.
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 06:54:32 am »

Loading with the subs will seem more like loading with smokeless but volume loading does apply with them also.  Standard smokeless bullet lubes are even more than is required AND no lube at all is quite adequate according to the manufacturers info.  They do leave some sort of residue behind but it is a white film and does not feel oily or greasy but it seems to work pretty well.  The one common thread with real bp and subs is the need to add a strip down and cleaning to your press, dies and powder measure after each loading session.  I skipped a few times and now have a mellowed brown reloading press!  I always make sure I load everything I can lay my hands on when loading smoky stuff to maximise the cleaning to oading ratio.  I do not load 44 spec anymores so I have little to contribute there.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 10:36:13 am »

BP, in and of itself is not corrosive.  The residue from BP is hygroscopic and retains moisture against the steel.  Rust is the result.  It (the rust) doesn't usually happen "overnight" and a full teardown after shooting a match isn't usually called for.  Cleaning out the Carrier Block mortise, the chamber and the bore is about it.  Pistol, same same, cylinder and bore.  It is important to find a non petroleum based lube.  Petroleum based lubes and BP don't play together well.  I'd recommend Mobile 1grease and oil.  Synthetic.

Subs, are somewhat chemically corrosive, but again, the problem doesn't occur overnight.  There is some "wiggle" room.  Subs like APP don't require extensive bullet lube.  They create their own.  You can shoot any bullet with APP.  Subs don't require any load compression.  Just load to the base of the bullet.

Both clean up easily with water and a little dish detergent (hot dries faster).  Capitol FUN!!!

Coffinmaker
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Abilene
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 09:33:14 pm »

I think you will get a lot of blowby into the action if you use a 170 gr bullet.  If you read about 45LC users shooting BP in their rifles you will see that the least blowby occurs with the biggest bullet and the highest charge of powder (meaning no filler).  And even then they will get some fouling into the action unless they try such tricks as annealing the brass.  In my 44 spcl 1866 I have mostly used a 240gr bullet with BP, plus a full charge of FFFg, and the action still gets pretty dirty.  Now, having said that, I never had it seize up on me during a stage due to fouling, though I did have to spritz the carrier area with a mist of water or moose-milk (water/ballistol) once or twice during a match if the humidity was low. 

As for cleaning the rifle, other than the bore, I just cleaned the carrier area with a bunch of Q-tips dipped in moosemilk, and then sprayed some oil (ballistol or Tri-Flow) and worked the action before putting it away.  This oil gets into the links area and neutralizes any fouling in there.  I only took the side plates off of the '66 to clean the inside about once every couple or three years.  Yeah, it was pretty gunky inside but no rust. 

Of course, BP in any caliber runs fine in most pistols.
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Shotgun Franklin
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 09:25:39 am »

We use a lot of BP loads at work. Here lately we started putting a little Bore Butter on the front end of the bullet just before loading the revolver. It seems to keep the gun shooting with less effect on the action. We don't use BP rifle loads but I believe it would help there too. Cleanup is straight Windex.
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Judah
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 12:34:29 pm »

I have shot thousands of BP 44 specials.

I would suggest that in your first foray use use APP 3f. You wont have to change bullet lube or strip your guns of petroleum based lubricant.

Just load by volume as previously described. Your 170 gr bullet is fine. Get a good tight crimp.

Then when you realize the darkside is the only way to go, you can start wiring to real BP if you want (although I've got no problem with APP)
ps search for Captain Baylor's BP for Dummies for tons of good information
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 03:03:51 pm »


I would suggest that in your first foray use use APP 3f. You wont have to change bullet lube or strip your guns of petroleum based lubricant.

Just load by volume as previously described. Your 170 gr bullet is fine. Get a good tight crimp.

Then when you realize the darkside is the only way to go, you can start wiring to real BP if you want (although I've got no problem with APP)
ps search for Captain Baylor's BP for Dummies for tons of good information

I think we are all trying to make this all to complicated. Just clean your firearms normally, but then lubricate without using heavy petroleum products.  Reading up on THE DARK ARTS is a really good idea. Starting with BP is not a mistake and is what we all had to do before these substitute gunpowders came along. 

The world will NOT COME TO AN END! Cheesy

And, I guarantee that you will have loads of fun! Cool
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2014, 06:07:28 pm »

Pour in enough powder that the lube sized Big Lube®LLC bullet compresses it between 1/16 to 1/8".  Seat the bullet and crimp.  That's it.

Many thousands of 44 Cal rounds have been loaded just like that.  Shoot a whole Annual match before cleaning.  Cleanup is a snap with a spritz of Moosemilk and a tug of the boresnake.

I clean my guns in less than 15 minutes and have won many a 12 pack on just that wager.  My guns sparkle and are much cleaner than the heathen fad smokeyless shooters guns.  Life is good.

DD-MDA
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Rooster Ron Wayne
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 07:17:55 am »

You will find out that a full load of BP with a light 1/8 crimp on a 200gr bullet works great in your rifle.
But its a lot in your open tops .
I had to switch to 44 Russians for my open tops.
You will beat the hell out of your hand and your guns with a full load of 44 special in Open Top pistols.
Just sayin
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greyhawk
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 08:27:16 am »

So I've been shooting CAS off and on for a couple of years now. I shoot .44 Specials and thought I might try BP in them. Currently I shoot a Cimarron 1873 lever, a 4 3/4" Uberti 1873 and a 7 1/2" Open Top.

  I'm a little apprehensive about the clean up and potential corrosion issues. The revolvers are no problem to tear down and clean, but gawd I hate the thought of disassembling the lever rifle after every shoot!

  I load a home-cast 170 gr. RNFP typically cast from WW's to a Bhn of 12-13. Are these bullets soft enough? Also I lube them with Scarlet Ceresin lube which is a little firm and requires heat. Will this lube work OK?

 How much BP would I need for a 650 +/- fps load out of my revolvers?

 Thanks in advance.

OK Here goes
1) Dont shoot pyrodex!! its way more corrosive (waaaay more) than black powder - use the real stuff
2) the cleanup is much less trouble than you have been led to believe - I shoot several lever guns exclusively with blackpowder - dont remember the last time I gutted one for a clean - certainly NOT after every shoot - its years - I made a cleaning rack out of a few bits of scrap timber - and a flush bottle from a soda bottle with a plastic tube about bore size - organise things so the rifle lays in da rack upside down and muzzle at a slight slope downhill - what will cause you the most grief of all is if ya get water in the magazine tube - dont wanna do that !!! - during cleaning - so in all of this the gun stays belly up as much as possible - so
3) hold said shootin iron muzzle down and action open - poke the plastic tube a little ways in the chamber - tip up bottle and run a little water down bore - bottle down - tube out - slip it on the rack belly up - one pass with a bristle brush - repeat the flush n brush caper till the flush runs clean (thats maybe three or four times) - back on the rack belly up, action open (always belly up to protect that magazine from getting water in!!!) - poke a couple dry flannel patches in da action and push dry patches through till bore is squeaky dry - now a WD40 patch - yeah I use that stuff - it works - its cheap - always some around tha workshop someplace - wipedown outside - spray a bit in betsys innards - its done - I leave my cleaning rack and patches setup and the whole thing takes about five minutes.
4) you might do well to anneal some of those 44 special cases before you go on your adventure with blackpowder - it will stop blowby into the action and save a heap of work down the road
5) lube --- forget your normal smokeyless lube - make some 1/2 beeswax and 1/2 oil - neatsfoot or olive oil (not mineral or engine oil)
6) lead - I like softer - 1/3 to 1/2 wheelweight and the rest is pure lead - dunno the BHN but I like em soft
7) powder --- fill - er - up - load blackpowder so its a little compressed 1/16th to 1/8th compression suits most times

Cool 9) 10) etc     every reply will tell ya something different, blackpowder guys are like that, some are picky , some are cranky, we all kinda crazy -   I post pics of my cleaning rig tomorrer if ya like - phone is dead flat right now - have fun with it -   
   
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greyhawk
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 09:13:32 am »

Pour in enough powder that the lube sized Big Lube®LLC bullet compresses it between 1/16 to 1/8".  Seat the bullet and crimp.  That's it.

Many thousands of 44 Cal rounds have been loaded just like that.  Shoot a whole Annual match before cleaning.  Cleanup is a snap with a spritz of Moosemilk and a tug of the boresnake.

I clean my guns in less than 15 minutes and have won many a 12 pack on just that wager.  My guns sparkle and are much cleaner than the heathen fad smokeyless shooters guns.  Life is good.

DD-MDA

Dick
Couldnt be that easy huh?  but it is and some of the pernickity fellers dont like that it can be easy - I never understood that .
Blackpowder is fun !!
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Dick Dastardly
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2017, 02:11:20 pm »

Just for the record, it isn't the black powder that gave it's self a bad reputation for corrosion.  It was the primers.  The residue from primers "back then" was corrosive as all get out.  When we all switched to "Staynless", make that read Winchester type non-corrosive primers most of the questions about corrosion went away.  The myth survives but black powder is not near as corrosive as legend would have it.

DD-MDA
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Major 2, Capt Quirk)  |  Topic: Want to Load BP in My .44 Special « previous next »
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