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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Loading Data for the 50/95WCF 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Loading Data for the 50/95WCF  (Read 61750 times)
ndnchf
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« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2015, 12:31:18 pm »

Looks like a winner. Looking forward to your range report!
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« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2015, 03:50:44 pm »

That is indeed a great looking mould.  I have a Lyman #515139 in 350gr. coming from Buffalo Arms. In the mean time, I trimmed some .515141's from .970" to .740" at roughly 415gr.  These I loaded up with H4895 using Fed 210 primers.  I should have used my 215's due to some propensity towards hangfires unless I pointed the muzzle up before touching them off.

I set up a "25 yard Timed and Rapid Fire Handgun Target at 100 meters (109yards) and proceeded to test my new Uberti M76 rifle & the ammo ammo with it's factory sights. The black bull (9 and 10 rings only) on this target is 5 1/2" wide and made a decent aiming point for the open sights, shot off the bench.

The 300gr. .512" RFN's did not shoot very well at all, scattering around - perhaps 3foot group - all round the target and none of the first 10 rounds on it - both high and low, side to side - LOL, however they did not lead the bore, which surprised me.  I merely blasted the rest of them off- 30 - to fireform the shortened .50/90 brass, of which I had 40.  the other 60 brass I have, is Jamison, .50/95 WCF. Nice brass. The .50/90's also fireformed nicely, by the way.

When I first received the rifle, I ran a square of red Scotch Brite through the bore - perhaps 30 strokes, lubed only with WD40 then I cleaned it well with Patch-out and oiled with Kroil. The bore feels very smooth and even.  It lacks the loose spot my brother's model 76 had, which we fire-lapped out, BTW.

The shortened #515141's, weighing from a low of 410gr. to a maximum of 420gr. I lubed them by hand, with a mix. of 60% (good) beeswax, 40" Vaseline which had worked for me, for 20years or more, smokeless or black powder.  I made 2 deliberate, 5 shot groups, off the bags (resting the back of my left hand on the bench-rest's bag) ran a horizontal group 3 1/2" wide C to C and only 1 5/8" high, then the nasty, gusting cross wind shifted, to directly behind us & gusting making a group 2.9" C to C and only 2.3" wide.

For the first day at the range with a new rifle and new loads, I was quite pleased. Nice trigger and minor boot in recoil. After arriving home, a very tight dry patch removed one small sliver of lead - that was it, for 60 shots total. There was no other lead in the barrel and not much carbon fouling either. An easy cleanup.

It will be fun to test with the new mould when it arrives.

My brothers rifle, with the mid range aperture sights and Hadley eye piece put 10 shots (both he and I shooting) into 2.465" X 1.337", again, a horizontal group in the cross wind. The load in that .45/60 was a 300gr. FN with 14.0gr. of Trail Boss.
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« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2015, 04:05:38 pm »

Just checked the mould again at Buffalo's site, seems to have a .400 from meplat to crimp groove. That might be too long, unless I trim the cases - might try crimping over the first band before shortening my brass.(after it arrives, that is. Was mailed yesterday - could take about 3 weeks - damn. I am not good at waiting.
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ndnchf
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« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2015, 04:39:13 pm »

That is mighty fine shooting, especially for the first time out. How are you shortening those 515141 bullets?
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« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2015, 04:45:53 pm »

I have my Dad's little lathe - Standard Optical Company is the name of it. It's babbit bearings need replacing and due to that, it has too much slop for precise work. I use it for brass work on some of my wildcats and for shortening cases and such - worked well on the bullets.
There is no carriage feed, all by crank.  Dad did a lot of good work on it - he was much more skillful than I, that's for sure.
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« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2015, 03:29:17 pm »

What sort of velocity are you guys getting with 350gr. and 75gr. 3F GOEX?

I think Swiss 1 1/2F is denser than GOEX as I was able to load 80gr. with a 420gr. bullet (shortened #515141 450gr.) with 1/10" compression. I used a 36" Easton 2317 aluminum arrow shaft as a drop tube. I have funnels at both ends and trickle the powder into the top funnel.

I have not shot, nor chronographed these loads as of yet.  I was going to wait for the new sight, but find the stock sights are quite accurate for me, on the 5 1/2" black bull of the 25 yard handgun target when placed at 100 meters.

I think I'll try some Trail Boss loads as well, with the shortened Lyman bullets.
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« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2015, 05:33:10 pm »

Further to the previous post, I threw the same stricken weight in GOEX 3F, that weighs 80gr. is Swiss 1 1/2F. The measure threw 70 to 71gr. of GOEX 3F that had been in the powder horn for 3 months.  The powder horn is water proof, so I do not thing there would have been any drying, but that is not an absolute. There may have been some weight loss due to evapouration due to the air space inside the horn.  The Swiss is obviously more dense, hence more weight of powder for the same charge.

Judging by the extra .050" compression and extra 5 gr. of powder, it might be possible to get 85gr. of Swiss into the same case with a 350gr. bullets. I must experiment with this.
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« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2015, 06:20:02 pm »

I've not yet chrono'd my 3F loads, but I expect they are around 1350-1400fps. They are noticeably more stout than the 2F loads. A slip on recoil pad is my friend  Grin
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« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2015, 06:09:22 pm »

Sounds good, just more testing as time and temperature allows.  My Buffalo arms mould is in Vanvouver - record time, only 5 days, so far.
I was hoping to get 95gr. in the case, but 80 to 85 will be nice.  If it's going to be an express, it should be an express.
Yes - I may pick up a slip-on for myself, unless I can talk my brother into re-stocking my rifle- another 1/2" pull would be nice and higher comb, just like his. Was shouldering it today and it felt very nice indeed.
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« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2015, 06:16:56 pm »

What sort of velocity are you guys getting with 350gr. and 75gr. 3F GOEX?

I think Swiss 1 1/2F is denser than GOEX as I was able to load 80gr. with a 420gr. bullet (shortened #515141 450gr.) with 1/10" compression. I used a 36" Easton 2317 aluminum arrow shaft as a drop tube. I have funnels at both ends and trickle the powder into the top funnel.

I have not shot, nor chronographed these loads as of yet.  I was going to wait for the new sight, but find the stock sights are quite accurate for me, on the 5 1/2" black bull of the 25 yard handgun target when placed at 100 meters.

I think I'll try some Trail Boss loads as well, with the shortened Lyman bullets.

as soon as my sizing dies shows i will load up about 10 rounds of each 75gr FFg and 75gr FFFg and chrony them for kicks and giggles...might be a week or ten days though...
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ndnchf
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« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2015, 08:12:38 pm »

I wouldn't get too concerned about not getting 95gr or even close. Modern brass is thicker (read safer) and the original bullet was around 300gr, so there was considerably more powder room bacck in the day. But believe me, when you touch off a compressed case full of 3F, you know you have a real rifle. It makes its own thunder and lightening Grin
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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2015, 07:41:07 pm »

IMAGINE - the mould arrived TODAY. Just got it out of the mail box. No taxes or custom fees either. I'm ecstatic. Small parcel, hand delivered.  I'll cast come up tomorrow over at Taylor's. Casting outdoors now is too cold and he has an exhaust fan in the shop. He might even want to try some in his .50 Sharps.

As far as getting in 95gr. of Swiss, I knew it wouldn't work already, but would like to get 85gr. in with the 350gr. bullet. That will have to be Swiss powder as GOEX is lighter, but will be interesting to chrono that 85gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F against 75gr. of 3F GOEX.
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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2015, 09:05:24 pm »

That's prompt service! I look forward to hearing how it shoots.
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« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2015, 12:27:28 pm »

I'll be casting some up this afternoon - Wed. Just checked my 1 1/2F Swiss against GOEX 3F both from fresh cans.
With my adjustable measure set to throw 85gr. Swiss, it throws 78gr. GOEX.
So, I loaded up 5 rounds with Gasket wad, .1040comp. & .512" BA RN seated to 2.3" (light crimp bottom of crimp groove)- perfect feeding.
Loaded up another 5 without the wad, same seating depth and compression .100".
Loaded up another 5 with 78gr. 3F GOEX .100" compression - all at 2.3".
This amount of compression too almost no pressure at all, and felt very minimal. I am sure I can load the 350gr. with same charges, but time will tell that tale.
Note, I use a drop tube to settle the powder before compressing with a die.
Now, off to a meeting then casting.
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2015, 06:26:56 pm »

The mould, Lyman #515139AQ casts bullets in 6-7brinel (couldn't measure on the Lee scale) weight 367.2 to 367.8gr. I was fairly pleased with the narrow weights on the first 95 cast.  I did coat the mould with Ms Moly after cleaning off the preservative oils.  I didn't get it all off the sprue plate, as the first 5 or 6 bullets were had a couple wrinkles due to the oil vapours- perhaps from the plate's screw.
The mould drops them nicely, with only rarely having to tap the handle screw with a hammer handle.  Their nose length, I thought too long, will be fine in properly trimmed to length cases.  My action will allow 2.320" OAL, and these will give an OAL of 2.30".
I'll lube and load some up, perhaps tonight or tomorrow. Just in the throws of selling my Ram Hemi to a dealer.
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2015, 07:38:04 pm »

I checked my loading notes. I've shot the 515139 a good bit with different loads. My OA length is 2.250".
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« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2015, 08:26:13 pm »

Here is a photo of a Rapine 350 next to a bullet that I believe came from a rather obscure Ideal or Lyman 512137 mold.  It is .512" diameter and weighs 300gr.  I bought these from Mt Baldy bullets a number of years ago.  They were suppose to be 515139s.  Several emails with the owner did not clear up what they really were.  It was only after a lot of digging that I come to the conclusion that it is from a 512137 (Ideal made 2 versions of this mold with the same number, a 300 and a 350gr).  Unfortunately it is under size for my rifle.  But I have thought about sending it to Accurate molds and have Tom make me one like it in .515" diameter.  I'd like to have a real express bullet to load.  With Old Eynsford or Swiss and this bullet, I could probably get over 85gr of powder in it.  While not much for long range, it would be pretty flat shooting within 100 yards.

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« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2015, 01:03:19 pm »

Here is a better photo of the 300gr Ideal 512137 bullet I'm thinking about getting a mold for.

.
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« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2015, 01:45:44 pm »

I checked my loading notes. I've shot the 515139 a good bit with different loads. My OA length is 2.250".
Yes - OAL would depend on your 'trimmed length'. I was afraid the nose might be too long, but should be OK.  The small grease grooves might demand a grease cookie, though, with a 28" bl.  Guess we'll see.
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« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2015, 05:10:50 pm »

Yes, the 515139 shortcoming is lube capacity for that long barrel. I generally do not use them. But I pull a bore snake through every 5 or 10 rounds when shooting from the bench. Quick and easy.
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« Reply #95 on: November 21, 2015, 09:36:03 pm »

I have seen note of a .515" sizer die. I checked both RCBS and Lyman sites and the largest they list is 512". That one, I gave to my brother for his Sharps.
Did you open up a .512"?  Both Lyman and RCBS fit the RCBS lube sizers. I suspect the reverse might be true, but I do not know that for a fact.
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« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2015, 06:34:39 am »

Buffalo Arms sells custom sizing dies. Mine is a .515" I got from them.

Check out what I'm doing to bump up these 300gr bullets:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,56434.0.html
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« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2015, 12:07:07 pm »

ok now...

received my .515" sizing die and fabricated a punch....sized and lubed up 20 Moose Moulds 516375 Spencer bullets, sized 20 primed JBL .50-95 cases, neck sized to .514", filled 10 cases with 75gr (by weight) of Goex FFFg and 10 cases with 75gr (by weight) of Goex FFG, all powder was measured with a Belding & Mull powder thrower and a 24" drop tube, compressed the loads about .150" or just slightly shorter (about .020") than the distance from the base of the bullet to the crimp groove....seated and roll crimped the bullet to a COL of 2.280"...

saturday will be the chrony/sight in day....stay tuned!!!!
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« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2015, 02:27:33 pm »

Looking forward to seeing your chrony results.  I have not yet run my loads across the speedometer.  Stand by for thunder and lightening  Grin
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« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2015, 03:04:14 pm »

Looking forward to seeing your chrony results.  I have not yet run my loads across the speedometer.  Stand by for thunder and lightening  Grin

yup, love the "thunder and lightening"...i have a .45-90 Pedersoli Sharps that adds to the fun....pretty good out to 800 yards if i do my job right...500gr paper patched bullet over a ton of Goex FFg....hoot to shoot, that's for certain...
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