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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Loading Data for the 50/95WCF 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Loading Data for the 50/95WCF  (Read 44398 times)
Grizzly Adams
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« on: May 09, 2014, 06:24:29 pm »


At the suggestion of Postman63, I am setting stickies for load data.  If you have pet loads for the 50/95 WCF, please share them here.  As always, use caution when posting and when using data posted on this and any other forum.  Smiley
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ndnchf
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2014, 08:44:08 pm »

Great idea Grizz.  The best load for my .50-95 Uberti is:

Ten-X brass
Winchester large rifle primers
78.0 gr of Swiss 2F poured through drop tube, .030" card wad, then compressed to .370" below case mouth (about .150" compression).
after compression, 2 newspaper wads added on top of the card wad.
Rapine 350 bullet, 20:1, sized .515", lubed wiuth SPG.
Bullet seated .365" into case, O/A cartridge length: 2.255"

This load shoots about as good as I can see:

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ndnchf
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2014, 01:51:08 pm »

So am I the only one on the forum who reloads the .50-95? Or are the rest of ya'll just keeping your loads under your hat?
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Bittertrigger
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 05:22:06 pm »

No sir
 I acquired a Chaparral 76 in 50-95 not to long ago
After getting all burrs knocked down and the action all smooth out
A Marble tang sight has been mounted
Barrel has been slugged at 510
Bullets cast and a number of rounds both with TB and BP loaded
I am ready to test her out
Just need the family and work to leave me alone long enough to get to the range
As soon as I do I will post my results
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MJN77
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 09:25:29 pm »

Quote
Just need the family and work to leave me alone long enough to get to the range

Good Lord, I know what that's like. I traded for a Uberti 50-95 a few months ago and have barely had time to shoot it. I do have 79 rounds of full case BP ammo with 300 grain 312 bullets loaded for it. One of these days, I'll get to see how she shoots.
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hatman
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2015, 03:45:21 pm »

Howdy guys,

I have had no luck shooting Buffalo Arms-made 300gr and 350gr rounds through my Uberti 76 28" rifle (purchased new is 2012).
They can't even consistently hit paper on a 17" target at 50 yards.
I now have a new friend at the range who is a very experienced long-time reloader who believes the BA bullets must be undersized.
He's willing to reload for me if I get the dies and bullet mold.
As for the bullet mold he's recommending a Lee mold (.515) 450gr so here's my question:

In all my research I haven't seen anyone mention more than 350gr so is there anything wrong shooting 450gr?
My friend assures me there's no issue,  but I'd like a second or third opinion.
Thanks.
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mtmarfield
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2015, 10:58:56 pm »

   Greetings!

   According to an Ideal Reloading Manual, (1890's) reprint, Wolfe Publishing 1991, the rearmost Mould List shows, "512138.(450gr.)
This bullet was first made by our Mr. Barlow for a heavier ball for the .50-95 Winchester. It was afterwards adopted as the standard bullet for the .50-110-450 (.50-100-450, actually) Winchester." (I'm assuming that this is the Mould being used.)
   I believe that A.C.Gould MAY have designed this bullet, and had the Ideal Co. cut the Mould for him, but those books are packed, and can't verify. My immediate assumption was that the bullet was designed for the Winchester Single-Shot (Hi-Wall) chambered for the same Ctg. My belief was that this longer bullet, if seated into the case SO AS TO CYCLE PROPERLY IN THE WIN. 1876, the bottom most lubricated grooves might protrude past the neck, into the powder, and cause powder contamination, or aggravate barrel fouling, whereas in the "Hi-Wall", one MIGHT be able to seat the bullet out enough to eliminate the possibility. I currently don't have an Ideal/Lyman #512138, so that I can't check this myself. Please do post with details, and let us know how this loading works for you, as I have wondered myself! If your friend has a different Mould, please post the Manufacturer/Number!

         Be Well!

                   M.T.Marfield
                      7-05-15
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hatman
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2015, 11:36:11 pm »

   Greetings!

   According to an Ideal Reloading Manual, (1890's) reprint, Wolfe Publishing 1991, the rearmost Mould List shows, "512138.(450gr.)
This bullet was first made by our Mr. Barlow for a heavier ball for the .50-95 Winchester. It was afterwards adopted as the standard bullet for the .50-110-450 (.50-100-450, actually) Winchester." (I'm assuming that this is the Mould being used.)
   I believe that A.C.Gould MAY have designed this bullet, and had the Ideal Co. cut the Mould for him, but those books are packed, and can't verify. My immediate assumption was that the bullet was designed for the Winchester Single-Shot (Hi-Wall) chambered for the same Ctg. My belief was that this longer bullet, if seated into the case SO AS TO CYCLE PROPERLY IN THE WIN. 1876, the bottom most lubricated grooves might protrude past the neck, into the powder, and cause powder contamination, or aggravate barrel fouling, whereas in the "Hi-Wall", one MIGHT be able to seat the bullet out enough to eliminate the possibility. I currently don't have an Ideal/Lyman #512138, so that I can't check this myself. Please do post with details, and let us know how this loading works for you, as I have wondered myself! If your friend has a different Mould, please post the Manufacturer/Number!

         Be Well!

                   M.T.Marfield
                      7-05-15


Thanks M.T.
I will be sharing the words in your post with him.
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ndnchf
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 12:13:50 pm »

Hatman _ I hate to bust your bubble but I don't think that Lee 450gr bullet will work well in a '76.  That is a fine bullet for the .50-70, I use it myself.  But the 50-95 is an express round with a rate of twist designed for the lighter 300-375gr bullets.  That 450 bullet is not likely to stabilize in a '76.  Plus its extra length will reduce powder capacity and could cause overall length issues. Your new friend may be an experienced reloader, but if he does not have real first hand experience with a '76, he may be leading you down the wrong trail.  I recommend you slug your bore first and find out the groove size. Then look for bullets under 375gr that are around .001" over groove size.  Use the search function to search this forum for .50-95 loads and experience from others who have been there.  These rifles are capable of good accuracy, but you have to feed them a proper diet.
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Waddie Bill
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 12:46:39 pm »

 
  See my posting of 1/26/15 under the Topic "Uberti Short Rifle" (1/24/15)

  My loads are listed there.

  Waddie Bill
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hatman
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 07:25:28 pm »

Hatman _ I hate to bust your bubble but I don't think that Lee 450gr bullet will work well in a '76.  That is a fine bullet for the .50-70, I use it myself.  But the 50-95 is an express round with a rate of twist designed for the lighter 300-375gr bullets.  That 450 bullet is not likely to stabilize in a '76.  Plus its extra length will reduce powder capacity and could cause overall length issues. Your new friend may be an experienced reloader, but if he does not have real first hand experience with a '76, he may be leading you down the wrong trail.  I recommend you slug your bore first and find out the groove size. Then look for bullets under 375gr that are around .001" over groove size.  Use the search function to search this forum for .50-95 loads and experience from others who have been there.  These rifles are capable of good accuracy, but you have to feed them a proper diet.

Thank you sir.
I sent your post to him and just got off the phone.  We'll be going with the smaller size (300 or 350 most likely).

I had a feeling this might be the case so I really appreciate your input confirming my concern.

Compared to you guys, I'm relatively new to all this and a total amateur.  I've made a few mistakes along the way with a doozie being that I purchased 600 rounds of the BA ammo before I even shot the gun.  Sad  Oh well, at least I have a lot of brass my friend can reload.
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hatman
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 07:27:02 pm »


  See my posting of 1/26/15 under the Topic "Uberti Short Rifle" (1/24/15)

  My loads are listed there.

  Waddie Bill

Thanks Bill.
I forwarded your info as well.  Very much appreciated.
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ndnchf
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 08:23:35 pm »

Hatman - a lot of folks have had very good luck with that Lee 515-450 mold by machining the base to remove the last groove. This brings the weight down to about 350gr. It's popular with the Spencer shooters (I'm one of those guys too). In fact most of the bullets that work well for the 56-50 Spencer will be good for the. 50-95 too. You might want to peruse the Spencer forum for bullet suggestions. The Lyman 515139 is a popular choice also.

I also suspect that the BA ammunition has undersized bullets for your rifle. Do you know your groove size? My uberti is. 513" but they can vary a bit.
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hatman
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 11:37:39 pm »

Hatman - a lot of folks have had very good luck with that Lee 515-450 mold by machining the base to remove the last groove. This brings the weight down to about 350gr. It's popular with the Spencer shooters (I'm one of those guys too). In fact most of the bullets that work well for the 56-50 Spencer will be good for the. 50-95 too. You might want to peruse the Spencer forum for bullet suggestions. The Lyman 515139 is a popular choice also.

I also suspect that the BA ammunition has undersized bullets for your rifle. Do you know your groove size? My uberti is. 513" but they can vary a bit.

I don't know if my friend has the equipment to remove that base.  (Keep in mind I'm a total moron regarding reloading).

I don't know the groove size but my friend said we could slug the bore although he did seem to poo poo the need to do so.
Is there a reason to think that my 2012 '76 is other than .513 as is yours or varies enough to require more than a .515 mould?

I really appreciate your wisdom.  I would like this '76 to be a good shooter, but I have to admit sometimes I just pull it out of the safe, stare at it, and smile.  Smiley
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ndnchf
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2015, 05:22:46 am »

Unfortunately, groove size varies more than you'd expect. Yours may be. 513" but it could vary a couple thousandths. It only takes a few minutes to slug the bore. Then you know exactly what you are working with. Conventional wisdom is that your bullet diameter should be . 001" - .002" larger than groove size. What is the advertised diameter of the BA ammunition you have?

There has been a number of good discussions on this subject on the Cast Boolits forum, Leverguns sub-forum too. One thing I've picked up is that the original factory loadings changed over the years. At one point they went from using 2F to 3F black powder. This seems contrary to conventional wisdom. But as mentioned, this is an express cartridge. 3F gives higher velocities, but at a slightly higher pressure. The '76 is plenty strong to handle it. Some fellows report excellent accuracy with 3F. I loaded some up, but haven't been to the range to try it yet.
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hatman
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2015, 01:27:58 pm »

Unfortunately, groove size varies more than you'd expect. Yours may be. 513" but it could vary a couple thousandths. It only takes a few minutes to slug the bore. Then you know exactly what you are working with. Conventional wisdom is that your bullet diameter should be . 001" - .002" larger than groove size. What is the advertised diameter of the BA ammunition you have?

There has been a number of good discussions on this subject on the Cast Boolits forum, Leverguns sub-forum too. One thing I've picked up is that the original factory loadings changed over the years. At one point they went from using 2F to 3F black powder. This seems contrary to conventional wisdom. But as mentioned, this is an express cartridge. 3F gives higher velocities, but at a slightly higher pressure. The '76 is plenty strong to handle it. Some fellows report excellent accuracy with 3F. I loaded some up, but haven't been to the range to try it yet.

IIRC, the BA ammo was .510 (or maybe .511).

Sounds like the prudent thing to do is slug the bore, do some more research and then select the appropriate tools.
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ndnchf
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2015, 04:18:04 pm »

Yep, now you are on the right track.
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larryo_1
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2015, 08:36:54 pm »

Hatman:

I probably sound like a broken record but one place to look for answers is where I got two custom molds out of.  They are "Hoch" custom molds.  One for my 40-82 and the other for my 45-75.  Both cast in the shape and weight you would specify.  They are a bit spendy but i am and have been total satisfied with the ones I got.  So, if you would be interested, let me know and I can send the address and other stuff.
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 10:49:00 am »

Hatman:

I probably sound like a broken record but one place to look for answers is where I got two custom molds out of.  They are "Hoch" custom molds.  One for my 40-82 and the other for my 45-75.  Both cast in the shape and weight you would specify.  They are a bit spendy but i am and have been total satisfied with the ones I got.  So, if you would be interested, let me know and I can send the address and other stuff.

Sure, thanks Larry.
I'm not one to turn down wisdom and experience from others.  Smiley
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hatman
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2015, 06:14:10 pm »

OK, we slugged the bore and it came out .513 and all the ammo I bought was .509. 
So we now have a 340gr .51539 mould and the 450gr mould which one of the guys at the range can reduce down to 350.

My reloading buddy is now asking for recommendations for smokeless powder.
Would appreciate some wisdom/experience.
Thanks.
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ndnchf
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2015, 07:10:02 pm »

I shoot mostly black or subs. But I asked the Accurate ballistician about 5744 loads. For the lyman 515139 he recommended a low of 26.5gr for 1200-1300 fps to a mid-level of 35gr for 1450-1550fps. Being conservative I tried 27gr under the lyman and found it pleasant to shoot and quite accurate. But I only tried that one load. I really prefer black powder.
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2015, 09:50:49 pm »

I shoot mostly black or subs. But I asked the Accurate ballistician about 5744 loads. For the lyman 515139 he recommended a low of 26.5gr for 1200-1300 fps to a mid-level of 35gr for 1450-1550fps. Being conservative I tried 27gr under the lyman and found it pleasant to shoot and quite accurate. But I only tried that one load. I really prefer black powder.

Thank you nd.
Today was a very successful day.
I was able to procure some 5744 and we (and by we I mean my friend while I watched) loaded 5 rounds of 27gr of 5744 under 35gr of Cream of Wheat with the 350gr Lyman.
The groups dropped from 4 ft (with BA loads) at 50 yards to 4 inches.   Smiley


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ndnchf
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2015, 06:27:16 am »

That's great! I think the bullet diameter made all the difference. I would caution against using fillers with 5744. I've read that Accurate says they are not needed and can raise pressures. Do a Google search on this for more info. I don't use them in my 5744 load and it shoots fine without it.

Now that you have a bullet that works, get some real black powder or pyrodex and have some real fun!
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2015, 01:26:32 pm »

OK thanks.
I've passed this info on to my friend along with some google-search links.

As for BP, I'll probably do that eventually.
I recently bought a Uberti Walker and am having great fun making smoke with that one.  Smiley
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hatman
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2015, 05:38:05 pm »

Update:
Today we tried 5 rounds same 27gr of 5744 but no filler.
Worked great and got a 2 1/4 by 2 inch group at 50 yards.  Yay!
My friend will be loading up some more and wring it out to 100 yards next week.
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