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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75  (Read 41359 times)
King Medallion
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2015, 01:30:35 pm »

Thanks for that load in 4320, going to try that now. I don't have Winchester Magnum primers but do have some CCI magnum's, going to try 10 of each.

Fixed the auto prime problem, turns out the hole in the shell holder had to be enlarged. Took the dremel and whittled a bit on the old style auto primer top rim and presto! works like a charm!
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QueensHorseman
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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2015, 06:06:14 pm »

I don't currently have an 1876 so I'm basing the following on my experiences with other calibers but I have had great results in various cartridges using Reloader 15 and Ross Seyfried years ago recommended it as THE powder for use in the big old British nitro express rounds in place of cordite or even the bp express rounds.  Its burning rate is in the area of 4895 and 4350, it is easy to ignite, and has a proven track record in large, low pressure cases.  Might be another good option if not using black.

I'm still sitting on the sidelines debating whether to get a .45-60 or .45-75 in nwmp carbine configuration.  Memories of heavy loads in my Browning '86 src are pushing me towards the .45-60 and it should do nicely for range shooting and deer hunting but then again the .45-75 is the more authentic choice of my red coated fore fathers! 

Thanks for the great forum and information.
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« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2015, 09:00:29 pm »

Queens Horseman; I have an NWMP carbine in .45-75 and have only fired it with gunpowder. Recoil is not objectionable. and suitable smokeless loads have been worked up by many to approximate BP mv's. My BP load hits right on to 300 yards with the "Spanish Meter" military style sight

IMHO the main reason to get a .45-60 is to use easier to find .45-70 cases to make suitable cases.
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2015, 09:20:52 pm »

Quote from: QueensHorseman
I'm still sitting on the sidelines debating whether to get a .45-60 or .45-75 in nwmp carbine configuration.  Memories of heavy loads in my Browning '86 src are pushing me towards the .45-60 and it should do nicely for range shooting and deer hunting but then again the .45-75 is the more authentic choice of my red coated fore fathers! 

I have a 45-75 now.  But I would really like to make up a round barrel, half mag 1876  in 40-60.  Roosevelt's favorite '76 rifle.   Brass would seem easy enough.  The bullets not so much.  Lighter bullets mean less recoil in general.  As does less powder.  And the 300g and 350s in the 45-75 seem to prove that.  But easy to understand why a  40-60 in the 1876 with a short round barrel and button mag would quickly become a favorite rifle. 

But I want to shoot the rifle a lot.  Next one for me will likely be a 45-60 even though I'd really like to have a 40-60 for all the reasons mentioned.  I'll just use 300g .45 bullets because every thing just seems so much easier all around. 
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greyhawk
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« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2015, 05:57:46 pm »

My rifle is a Uberti 1876 in 45/75 - have been shooting black so far - chinese fireworks powder in 4fa grade - we screened it out and calling the coarser screen FF - its close enough in burn rate to the European Wano FF but the chinese is dirty, cheap though, and with attention to cleaning is shooting ok - I paid serious money for this Uberti and been hesitant about smokeless loads in it. Lots of conflicting info around and a serious lack of pressure data. My thinking was to start with low pressure 45/70 info for the trapdoor - case size is a little smaller right ? (70 versus 75) OOOPS that is WRONG - I compared a fired winchester 45/70 case to my reformed 348 45/75 cases (on their third loading of Black) and very surprised to measure the 45/70 as 12 grains more capacity of blackpowder than the 45/75 - can only put this down to the thickness of 348 brass and those made cases are going to take several more loads to blow right out and fill the chamber - am curious if anybody else has compared case capacity this way?  I was mighty surprised at what I found and that has got to have some effect on pressure along with the bottle neck versus straight case of the 45/70. How safe is this load data comparison?
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greyhawk
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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2015, 06:16:09 pm »

again on the 45/75 loading
Winchesters famous blow up blurb has been quoted several times here as evidence of what the 1876 will stand ?
203 grains of powder and 1750 grains of lead "worked well" according to the write up ??
This gets quoted as the truth !!! Winchester was a shirt salesman and this was the era of the BS snake oil salesmen ! You fellers can believe it if you like - I also got a piece of range in Arizona with ocean frontage to sell - anybody interested.
cheers
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Silver_Rings
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« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2015, 07:31:35 pm »

I have a Chappy 1876 and they list 27,000 psi.  Here is info on Uberti:
Uberti has an article on their web site that quoted 29,000 psi as a max for a new production 1876.  And saw the resulting argument s about how that was unsafe according to the Internet "Experts" eye balling it.  Saw another comment today that Accurate Powders quoted 27,000 PSI. 

The low end Springfield loads for 300 grn bullets is a good place to start.  If you are going to use heavier bullets, like 350 and 400 grns, then start a little lower because they reduce case capacity.  My experience with both my 45-60 and 45-75 is they are stronger than people think.

Silver Rings
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« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2015, 02:07:24 am »

You mean this from early Winchester records?

"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

 
Being active in the gun industry at  many levels the last 30 years I have seen so much ignorance represented as "fact" I make a point of checking the well know "facts" out myself.  Beginning to think the "weak" '76 was a historical "fact" based in fiction.

Knowing that a 1873 is now chambered for a 44 magnum and the resulting 36,000 PSI loads I think we are safe loading the 45/75 with smokeless.  I agree with Silver Rings  the modern 1876 is  stronger than most think.  And the fact as Silver springs has mentioned Uberti lists the gun (by an article on their web site) as capable of 29,000 PSI.  Easy to stay under that with 300/350 gr smokelss loads I think.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2015, 11:57:36 pm »

reply to Yahoody

yep thats the one - not trying to denigrate Winchester or Uberti we've been shooting cowboy guns for fun since 1965 but the info in that quote comes from a time when they were allowed to stretch the truth in the name of marketing, much more than we can today.
Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful .
Like many others I was surprised when I first read the 44 magnum 1873 was in their catalogue - that upped the ante condsiderably.
Of course the factory ammunition only disclaimer thats standard would neutralise most insurance claims before they get started.
Going out to test a duplex load with 5gr 4227 under that chinese black - that might clean things up a bit - also moving up from my modified lee 350 grain pill to the 405 grain hollow base - gets one more lube groove that way and the Uberti seemed to like the heavier weight better on my first test .
Problem is I gotta shoot off fifty of the lighter bullet loads to get the cases back .. darn it that sounds like fun!

Uberti  1866 in 22lr, carbine 44/40, rifle 44/40, original Win 1973 in 38/40, Uberti 1876 in 45/75, winchester 1892 in 25/20 rifle,32/20 rifle,44/40 short rifle, Rossi 1892 carbine in 357 mag, Browning model 71 in 348,     
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greyhawk
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« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2015, 12:30:31 am »

I have a Chappy 1876 and they list 27,000 psi.  Here is info on Uberti:
Uberti has an article on their web site that quoted 29,000 psi as a max for a new production 1876.  And saw the resulting argument s about how that was unsafe according to the Internet "Experts" eye balling it.  Saw another comment today that Accurate Powders quoted 27,000 PSI. 

The low end Springfield loads for 300 grn bullets is a good place to start.  If you are going to use heavier bullets, like 350 and 400 grns, then start a little lower because they reduce case capacity.  My experience with both my 45-60 and 45-75 is they are stronger than people think.

Silver Rings

Thanks for the links - I am being overly conservative with my 76 - I bent a brass frame 66 a long time ago - a 22 mag we were trying to pull down to clean  - the butt wouldnt come away from the tangs and I gave the point of the comb a bit of a bump with the heel of my right hand to loosen it - yup - when we put it back together the bolt was binding a little in the frame - not smooth and slick anymore - fixed it - sold it - be careful next time .

If I can shoot a magazine full in this 76 without having to clean this gun to hit its ok - cant use a lube disc in the case under the 405 grain cuz the boolit base is already hangin a little bit down in the shoulder area . anyway its all fun figuring things out

Pressure ? Guys are shooting full case compressed loads of FFF Swiss - that stuff has got some grunt - maybe more than GoEx - it would have to be up in the low 20K range I reckon - we used to buy ungraphited 5FA GoEx in 25lb bags - beautiful clean powder but the cracker factory blew up and no more cheap GoEx came to Aus --- ahh for the good old days.
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yahoody
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« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2015, 01:21:54 am »

"Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful . "

Do you consider Uberti repeating 29,000psi on the company website misinformation or a simple over sight?





.
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greyhawk
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« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2015, 03:34:38 am »

"Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful . "

Do you consider Uberti repeating 29,000psi on the company website misinformation or a simple over sight?

That'll do me fine - if Uberti wrote it -
its daytime here downunder I sposed to be workin - havent had time to dig it out yet - thats tonights project .

What would you guys think about 45 - 47 grains of Win 748 in this case ?- its on hand and I sold my 30/30 - charts list 52 grains for the 45/70 trapdoor - looks about nice in the case - just a little room under the boolit.
thanks
Greyhawk





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spacecommander
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« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2015, 05:59:21 pm »

Has anybody found any reliable published and tested data for this other than what's in the latest Cartridges of the world (24grains 4198, 350g bullet) and the info for lighter bullets in the Lyman #49? Even extrapolating starting loads for the trapdoor 45-70 results in substantially higher loads . . . . Taking a 45-70 trapdoor loading for the 350g cast bullet
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Mike
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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2015, 08:39:43 pm »

I dont belive Uberties warenty covers Reloads full stop. Factory loads only. So what ever the factory loads do is were you stand or take a chance?Huh
Black Powder is the way to go. Grin
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Buffalochip
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« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2015, 09:11:51 pm »

I dont belive Uberties warenty covers Reloads full stop. Factory loads only. So what ever the factory loads do is were you stand or take a chance?Huh
Black Powder is the way to go. Grin

Doubt their warranty would cover your own black powder reload. There is basically no factory ammo. It's 2015. There is NO reason a safe smokeless load can't be developed. I'm aware of the burn rates, pressure curves, etc. Not attempting to "magnumize" the gun at all, just want a shootable smokeless load that doesn't smoke the sides of the cartridge casing.
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yahoody
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« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2015, 09:26:54 pm »

I've now shot (and chrono'ed some of each) several thousand rounds of 45-75 using 3 different smokeless powders more typically used in 45-70.

Within  reason I don't see any problems with smokeless in these guns.  Smokeless sure can make a clean burning gun/ammo with some humph behind a 300gr or 350gr bullet.  Certainly more than I ever want to take advantage of or shoot for power/vel.   Easy to get every bit the equal of the typical powder puff 300gr 45/70 factory loads.    From what I have witnessed it isn't hurting the '76 action any either.  I have no head space change from new and the gun's action continues to just get smoother with every range session.

I own 3 really nice '86s any one of which had been my favorite big bore.  But even my scrappy and ugly little '76 is something to behold shooting.   I can see why guys kept the '76 running long after the '86 came out.  I suspect it was smokeless and the better cartridges that killed the '76 more so than the design effort. 

No question the '76 was an old design...but then look how long the '73 stayed in production along with the '92.  Anyone that has shot the '73 and '92 side by side will "get it " on the '76/'86 comparison.    Distinct advantages to both designs depending on what your requirements were.   
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« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2015, 10:43:41 pm »

I agree, What would be interesting to know is what they Proof them to. I only ever shoot for a group dont have a Chrono and look for signs of pressure.
Use nitro in my 76 45-60 and 86 45-70 no issues, have used Varget, 4759, 4198, no problems and good results. I dont no what they chrono, mild to shoot and hit were i want them to.
I think one can get to caught up with how fast a round is going and forget what you are realy after "A Group" at a set distance or distances.
That just me. I have done the same with my hunting rifles for twenty years.
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« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2015, 09:52:20 am »

Howdy Spacecommander,

There is very little reloading data for the 45-75, so if you answer some questions I'll see if I can help.

Is your 45-75 the Winchester chambering or the Italian?  If you don't know, when you shoot your gun does the brass come out looking like it did before firing or is the shoulder moved forward?  If the shoulder is moved forward, you have the Italian chamber, which holds more powder but has a shorter neck.

What powder(s) do you have to reload with? 

What are you planing to use the loads for?  Hunting?  Paper targets?  Steel targets?  Plinking? 

What velocity are you looking to get?

Silver Rings 
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« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2015, 11:22:06 am »

Anybody using Varget?  So far I'm playing with it again, cast 20-1 350 grain bullet, 40 grains of Varget yielded average velocity out of a Uberti NWMP at 1130FPS.  Will bump it up to 41 grains and see what happens.  The 40 grain load is accurate enough at 100 yards for deer hunting, and about as accurate as I can shoot with the current sights.
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2015, 06:55:52 pm »

I have used Varget with 300 gr bullets.  Varget works OK but I had extreme spreads of over 100 fps.  If you are looking for a 100 yd deer load a 350 grain bullet at 1100 fps should be fine.  If you want higher velocity then you can try working up the loads some.

I've done some hot rodding of the 45-60  and 45-75 and found that finding accurate loads become more difficult to find and the recoil gets more painful.

Silver Rings
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« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2015, 08:50:49 pm »

Silver Rings:
Well I have to admit that I, too, have played alot with my 45-75 and have gone through alot of different loads and powders but to make a long story short, my rifle has the Uberti chamber and since it is blessed with that, it seems to like the 76 grain load of Swiss 1˝ best and then 4831.  It also likes 2400 but with a filler on top of the powder.  The bullet that I use and have stated this before is a Hoch custom one that I cast with a 16:1 alloy that I make myself.  It drops at a perfect 350 grains.  Now I have to admit that my shooting days have been rather scarce since my heart started acting up but one of these days will go at it again.  I don't know if any of this blather has helped anyone but got it said anyway.
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« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2015, 10:13:38 am »

Well I bumped the charge up to 41 grains and this is what I got out of a 5 shot string.

1255fps high, 1118fps low, 1179fps average, 137fps extreme spread, 52 standard deviation.

Accuracy wasn't that great, but still plenty good enough for deer out to 100 yards.  I did notice the POI was about 4" lower than the 40 grain charge.

I've tried trail boss, and was underwhelmed.  I wish I could find a powder between trail boss and Varget.

So far the most accurate loads for me is 66 grains of 2F Swiss and the Lyman 350 grain bullet.  However the Lyman is a single cavity iron mould and a PITA to cast with.  It's better, when I first got it I didn't think I'd ever get it to cast decent boolits.  Now about 9 out of 10 are good, instead of the other way when I first started using it.

For the smokeless loads I've been using an NOE 5 Cavity 350 grain mould.  Make a very nice boolit, big metaplat and very crisp moulding.  Unfortunately it doesn't cary enough lube for black powder shooting.  I do OK if I run a bore snake wet with moose milk down the barrel after every magazine load.  It would be good for hunting, but for range trips I have to carry supplies to keep the accuracy up.  Would love for there to be a big lube design for this round.

I did try several other powders, 5744 showed promise, but I had one round that didn't ignite the powder, but did push the boolit into the barrel and out of the case.  Made a nice mess with spilled powder.  So far Varget seems to do the best for me, and I've got a big jug of it.  One thing about it they suggest you crono any new batches of Varget as different batches are slightly hotter or cooler than others.  Might have to bump up or down a grain or two to reach your target velocity.
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« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2015, 05:57:36 pm »

Guys- something that might help in the loading and pressure business, is to obtain Hodgdon's Annual Manual.  Yes- it comes out every year. I bought the last one directly from Hodgdon by a simple phone call.  As well, Richard Lee's handloading book might be of use.

 Note Lee uses the same "any .45/70" data as his 11mm/.43 Mauser data as well, however the .43 Mauser has a 77gr. capacity and used 340gr. bullets. I have used this data in an original M71 Mauser (1876) that I rechambered to .450 Alaskan (97gr. case capacity). I chambered the rifle to .450 Alaskan so I could get good cases at the time.  .43 Mauser brass was not available, however it is now- apparently, from Star Line.  I load black powder level speeds using smokeless powder, my choice being H4895 with foam backer rod for filler.  With the loads I am using, I get almost identical velocities as shown for the .45/70 - even though my case is MUCH larger.  Same velocities means similar or same pressures, certainly nothing dangerous.

It is best to also use a chronograph with your load development.

In either of these books, you will have to extrapolate, but - good starting loads for .45/60 and .45/75 can be found in the Trapdoor Springfield data (HODGDON) using their starting loads as starting loads. The Hodgdon manuals are super as they list Hodgdon, IMR and WW powders- including Trail Boss in many ctgs. even the magnum modern rounds.

Note the pressures that can and are generated with Trail Boss. The might seem like go-pow pistol-type loads but many of them are in the 24,000PSI range, especially when dealing in the 100% loading density arena.

------------------------ DO NOT START WITH TOP END LOADS SHOWN FOR THE TRAPDOOR. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT USE DATA FOR -------------------------THE STRONGER ACTIONS IN REPRO ACTIONS OF LESS STRENGTH.  The only rifle I can think of as possibly  fitting the stronger bunch such as the Marlins, are the M92's and M86's. The MFG're should have the final word on that.

Note the pressures in the 15,000CUp to 16,000CUP range - THAT is where to start. For many of you, those velocities are about where you want to start and likely stop to obtain original black powder load levels. Yes - those smokeless loads develop LESS pressure than black powder loads do or did in the same cases, with the same bullets.

This data is very useful. Note that it takes a BIG change in capacity to make a difference in pressure and velocity delivered.

You cannot go wrong with what I have stated above.

Also- some might want to try jacketed bullets with black powder. Don't laugh. It works. My bro shot a moose with a 500gr. Hornady RN with his Sharps .45 3 1/4, loaded with 100gr. 2F and a whack of 1/10" wads to fill the space. It worked. In Australia, there is a rifle competition which allows jacketed bullets with black powder loads.  Try it if you want - much better accuracy than with cast bullets and black powder, usually. Surprisingly enough, there is no fouling buildup as the jacketed bullet just pushes it out, each shot. Now, if you have a loose spot, it will build, I suspect, but do not know.
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« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2016, 05:11:59 pm »

I shot some H4895 today under 300 grain bullets. Trapdoor starting load called for 45 grains. Group was pretty good but LOTS of unburned powder with a Federal 210 primer. So bad that I ran a patch after each shot to get the unburned powder out of the barrel.

I shot a couple loaded with 3031 also just to see how the acted. A little unburned powder but not as bad. Didn't try for a group with this round since the sun was going down and in my eyes.

No pressure signs with either powder load and the brass looks perfect with no wrinkles. It was new Jamison brass, first loading.
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« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2016, 12:02:14 pm »

My rifle has the Uberti chamber and both it and I like that extra case capacity.  In all my trials and whatnot, I have found that 76 grains of Swiss 1˝, 4831 and 2400 seem to work the best.  When I use the 2400, I put a tuft of Kapok on top of the powder.  Alot of folks may frown on this method but I have never had any problems with it.  Maybe I am superstious or something but I feel that my rifle is a very fussy ol girl and it seems that she likes these loads the best of all that I have tried.  the only powder i have never tried is Varget but my son uses that in his .223 and is happy with it.  That load of 2400, I got out of Ken Waters book on loads and whatnot.  He also used the same load in his 45-60.  He did not use any filler like I do but then again that is my choice not his.  Anyway, these loads work for me and my rifle. I don't usually babel on like this so this is what I thought about when I read these notes.
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