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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75  (Read 41333 times)
larryo_1
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2014, 11:09:10 am »

Good shooting.  I run into the same problem with the unburnt  powder grains.  I weighted them and it comes to about 0.27 grains.  All I do after a shot is fired, is to tip the rifle to barrel up and then those grains fall back into the case.  No big deal but a good load.
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yahoody
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2014, 12:31:40 pm »

Thanks Larry.  I had wondered about my chamber dimensions not knowing prior to the rifle purchase there was a Uberti 45-75 chamber.

I should have fire formed the brass before load with filler and pistol powder.  But was simply too lazy and in too big of hurry to shoot the dang thing Wink

What I have that is noticeable is the little crinkles in the brass if there is some grains of powder left in the chamber from the previous round.  Doesn't see to hurt anything other than the cosmetic appeal of my lovely new Jamison brass.  If I swab the chamber prior to each round this doesn't happen.  Heavier bullets get a better burn and doesn't happen with them either.  Now I am on a search for a "fun" load to use with the 300 gr bullets that does burn fully every time.

I sure see the appeal of the rifle however. 
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larryo_1
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2014, 02:17:36 pm »

On all my testing with the different forms of 4831, The only weight of bullet I used was from my Hoch mold and cast at 350 grains.  I can't address a lighter bullet.  iI never had any of your "Crinkles" but that may be on account of the heavier bullet?  In fact, I rather like that 4831 powder and have had no problems other than the few grains of powder.  Were the neck  smaller perhaps the unburned grains would not be evident as that stuff was designed for large capacity cases such as the 270/30-06/7mag etc.  But I am happy with what I got.
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yahoody
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2014, 02:45:58 pm »

Quote from: larryo
I never had any of your "Crinkles" but that may be on account of the heavier bullet?  In fact, I rather like that 4831 powder and have had no problems other than the few grains of powder.

Ha, ha!  Larry with 60g of 4831 I bet you never  got any brass wrinkles  Grin.  Nice load btw!  My brass wrinkles with the 300gr bullets might be a good indicator of just how low the pressure is with 58gr of 4831 since the cases aren't fully expanding.  Also the 300 isn't touching the powder stack.  Close but the 350 is better there.  Which gives a better stack burn and more consistent pressure.   The cases are much cleaner and better/more fully formed (and more unpleasant to shoot)  with the 350s.

I am just guessing here as the dents in the brass seem like the shape of individual grains of 4831 powder look like.  I don't actually see any evidence of unburnt powder past something like you have mentioned.  Tiny, tiny amounts if any.

Love the BOOM and smoke of the 4831 though.   Sounds like a real big bore rifle through my muffs.   

Side note coming home from the range at sunset yesterday I jumped a small heard of Elk crossing the entry road.  No doubt in my mind the rifle and cartridge are capable.    Man was I joneing to use that 45-75  Shocked 
 
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larryo_1
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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2014, 05:36:44 pm »

I just dug up my test run on this load and On my Chronograph which is a PACT Pro chronograph. I got an average velocity of 1542.3.  I used Jamison brass that is headstamped 45-75 and fire-formed to my Uberti chamber.  I used a card over the powder and CCI250 magnum primers.  I put on a good roll crimp.  My bullet is, as I stated, a 350 grain bullet that was cast at an alloy of 16:1.  I got that recipie from a box of original ammo.  Works good in my rifle.  Tried 20:1 and it is too fussy for that.  The rest of the statistics are: SD=16.4fps, CV=1.12%, Hi=1561fps Low=1507fps.  Using a Powley computer, I got 18900psi which am not too sure of.  Even the ol buck snorts when you pull the trigger, I find it to be a pretty good load.  Hope all of this is of help.
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yahoody
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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2014, 05:40:58 pm »

Thanks Larry.  All good info.  I have yet to pull out my PACT but will eventually.
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larryo_1
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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2014, 08:31:40 pm »

Great!  Let me know how it all turns out.
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yahoody
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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2015, 07:14:15 pm »

Shot 100 mixed rounds of 300 and 350 gr bullets today.  Loads of 58gr up to  62gr (with the 300s) of 4831sc.  Lighter 300 loads do leave some unburnt powder in the chamber that I thought) dings the brass  when not cleared out but no untold issues past that.  The dinged cases shoot smooth again when reloaded and fired at 60grs.  The tiny bit of unburnt powder grains disappear and the brass is clean and smooth @ 60gr even with the 300gr bullet. Turns out that it is likely not unburnt powder according to my recent readings tonight.  But simply a slow powder and not enough chamber pressure.   Which is why the 350gr bullets and the heavier 60gr loads work so much better while keeping the gun and chamber clean because the brass and chamber seal upon firing.   

Muzzle after one session of 100 rounds of Oregon Trail lead bullets.



Even with 100 rounds down range today the gun (and my hands) are near spotless.  Inside an elevator is as well.  Wish my '73s would come out this clean!

Shot at distances of 100 to 200 yards.  100 and 150yds were easy hits on my 16" x 20 " gong off hand .   Going back to 200 took some elevation consideration to get on target but once figured out and dialed in for the load, hits at 200' from a bench were regular as rain.  At least till I got the gun pretty hot and my eyes started fading. (simple buckhorn and elevator with a 15.5" sight radius on a 20" barrel)

I found the '76 really quite pleasant and fun to shoot off the bench using a hasty rest built from my shooting bag, loading the rifle as a single shot.  Easy and quick.   What a grand gun to shoot!  I like the toggle guns so much more for function and how the action works than the '86 and '92.
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King Medallion
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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2015, 08:26:06 pm »

Got my factory crimp die today, works like a charm. I asked Lee if they could make me a shell holder for my auto hand prime, they said sure, cost will $175. I said really? For a shell holder? Yep. I don't need one that bad.
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yahoody
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« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2015, 08:58:27 pm »

Try a shell holder for a 348 Winchester...that is what I am using on mine.  Little tight with some of the brass but in general works great.  I think it is #8?

cost is cheap...$3.00 or so

http://leeprecision.com/hand-priming-tool-shell-holder-set.html

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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2015, 11:42:37 am »

Got one, tried it,  #8. Worked on a few. Brass will not fit into the old original round style Auto Prime, but will work in the newer Ergo style Primer. I do not like this new style of primer, it has an extra lifting shelf that is very unnecessary that seems to get clogged up regularly. I bought an extra #23 shell holder and had a guy at work mill off the bottom thinking that would be good for the auto prime, but still the dimension's are to thick, but can still use it one primer at a time. I can prime a lot that way for a lot less than $175.
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2015, 12:40:35 pm »

I just switch to an old RCBS "O" press and the LEE ram-prime. then I can use any shell holder.
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yahoody
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2015, 01:51:00 pm »

Dang it.  Thought that would work.
I'm running my Jamison brass on a Dillon 550 with a 348 shell plate.  Doing everything there but the powder drop.
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spacecommander
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« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2015, 09:11:43 pm »

Just got my Uberti 1876 today! Looking for some medium velocity starter loads. Have Lee dies, Jamison brass, Oregon Trail Lasercast .459 350 grain bullets and a bunch of different powders - pyrodex, trail boss, etc but no 4831. Anybody worked on a trail boss loading?
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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2015, 07:49:51 pm »

Ok, got some H4198 from a local source. I see Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" lists 24 grains of 4198 under a 350g bullet. I have the Oregon Trails lasercast 350 grainers. There seems to be a fair amount of conflicting data on the internet regarding both the load data (some going significantly higher in the 4198), the use of fillers/fiber wads or no fillers, and magnum or regular primers. If I could track down some real black powder I'd just fill it up to the base of the bullet + a tiny bit then load it up - but I can't seem to find real BP. Could somebody chime in with some suggestions? I mean somebody who has actually loaded and shot what they are recommending?  Wink I'd really like to try this Uberti 1876 . . . .
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yahoody
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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2015, 08:36:48 pm »

Sorry, can't help you on 4198.  I am still not totally satisfied with 4831.  So I will be loading 3031 and 4320 tonight and shooting it tomorrow.

H4198 seems pretty fast to me.  But so it 2400 and people shoot that and seem happy with the results.  Smiley
4895 seems to get used a lot as well with happy shooters.

Magnum rifle primers won't hurt anything and may help some with the big loads of powder.  If you aren't loading a full case poke fillers seem reasonable to me just to keep the powder in position for a consistent burn.

,
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spacecommander
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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2015, 09:50:49 pm »

Sorry, can't help you on 4198.  I am still not totally satisfied with 4831.  So I will be loading 3031 and 4320 tonight and shooting it tomorrow.

H4198 seems pretty fast to me.  But so it 2400 and people shoot that and seem happy with the results.  Smiley
4895 seems to get used a lot as well with happy shooters.

Magnum rifle primers won't hurt anything and may help some with the big loads of powder.  If you aren't loading a full case poke fillers seem reasonable to me just to keep the powder in position for a consistent burn.

,

This will be my first loading - the gun is unfired. I had decided on magnum primers and finally read the chapter in Lyman 49 about load data - was confused as it was not in the real load tables so wasn't sure what people were talking about. ;-)
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yahoody
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2015, 02:58:26 am »

Only had time today to load, then shoot, fifty rounds made up with IMR 4320. Used the 300gr and 350g Oregon Trail lead bullets on top of 50gr of 4320, with Winchester magnum rifle primers and a hard roll crimp.   No excess case expansion, nice rounded primers, primer pockets are still tight and cases are just barely fully forming in the chamber.  Accuracy is very good, mild recoil and smoke.  Loaded about 95% (300gr bullet) and 98% (350gr bullet) likely by case volume.  Just short of the bullet bases by 1/8" to 1/4".  Have yet to chrono.  Cases are now on the 6th reload and have yet to loose one of the Jamison 45/75 brass for any reason.  And they have been taking a beating!

I like these two loads by my observations today.  Not a totally full case by volume like the 4831sc.  But enough to ensure proper ignition of the powder stack.  Seemed to be easy shooting (physically) with no pressure signs, good accuracy and moderate recoil.   No unburnt powder in the chamber like 4831sc (and the resulting dinged cases after firing) and the cases are just barely fully formed in the chamber with 50grs of 4320.  Best load I have used to date and seems to shoot 1/2" high POA @ 50 yards in my lowest notch.  Perfect for my use.

Below: 15 fast shots on the left with the 300gr Oregon Trail bullet and 50gr of IMR 4320 @ 50 yards.  Five from the bench on the right with the 350gr Oregon Trail bullet over 50gr. of IMR 4320,  again @ 50 yards'.  On a decent day in good light I suspect the bench group could be cut in half.   



 
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matt45
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« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2015, 12:00:23 pm »

pretty good shooting- is that w/ the standard buckhorn, or do you have a tang sight?
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yahoody
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« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2015, 03:06:16 pm »

Thanks.  Buckhorn and black post on a 20" barrel so 15.5" of sight radius.  Hence the white targets.  But I do shoot iron sights a lot, which helps.

Compared to the pistol caliber lever guns I find the '76 pretty difficult to shoot well for some reason.  Same sights really, and a good trigger on this gun.  But gun is heavier and the recoil more.  The deep (er) crescent butt makes it hard to get a consistent shoulder mount for me compared to others that are similar I think.  Those are my current excuses anyway.  So I am trying lighter loads and a new butt cuff (not that I like them cosmetically) to see if I can live up to the gun's potential.
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2015, 07:11:43 pm »

Well, that's better than I can do  Smiley  If it had been me shooting that group on the left, I'd figure my barrel was slightly tilted between shots.  I don't figure I'll stand down range and let you shoot at me, anyways Wink
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pinto beans
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2015, 07:36:03 pm »

Mr. Yahoody,

Thanks for posting the results on the IMR4320 loads.  If you get a chance to run them across a chronograph, would be interested in the results.  IMR4320 is a favorite powder of mine in 3 cartridges, 220 Swift, 6mm Remington and 7x57mm Mauser.  Haven't tried it in the 45-75, been sticking with the AA5744 due to some limited information in the Lyman reloading manual.  What would be nice is if the Lyman folks would follow up with some additional testing, including pressure tests for the 76 cartridges using additional powders like 4320.  Sent them an email thanking for the information published to date and asking for just such a set of expanded tests, like the other listings in regular rifle loading section.  The reply said they would "pass the request along". I am not holding my breath, but sure am interested in the use of 4320, I have had such good results with it in more modern bottle neck cartridges.  Course I admit to not being very adventurous outside of published data.  Thanks again for sharing the adventures, looking forward to hearing more!!
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yahoody
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2015, 09:56:42 pm »

Hello Mr. Beans,
re: IMR 4320?
I have a small book called "40 years with the 45-70" that I had forgotten about.  Had it at least 25 years myself. It was published by Wolfe in 1989.  Anyway a lot of info there of shooting the 45/70 with 4320 which if I remember correctly was why I bought some 4320 for my 45/70s bitd.   As some may have expected/realised  I have been using  load data from the 45-70 Trap door and lighter lever gun loads as data worth checking out in my 45-75.

Seems 4831 and 4831sc need a little help with ignition.  Everyone seems to have problems with 4831 and the unburnt power in the straight walled cases.  Same problem in the 45-75.  That big old bottle neck case isn't the best mate for 4831.  It is just too slow IMO.   That issue and what it was doing to the next round of brass finally became too much for me.  Matthews is the author of the "40 year" book and suggested using a duplex load of 50gr of 4831 on top of 5 gr of Unique.   Duplex loads use to be fairly common with BP and early smokeless.  Along with many a blown up gun. Frankly, I aint THAT brave!

Matthews also seems to really like 3031 in the 45-70.    Which I'd bet makes it a good candidate for the 45-75.

My next adventure is going to be H4895.  4895 is some where in between on the burn rate chart of the 4831 and 3031.  And I have lots of it.  There has gotta be a sweet spot in there some where!  We'll see if it betters my current 4320 performance tomorrow.
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spacecommander
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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2015, 06:40:13 pm »

Mr. Yahoody - again a round of thanks for posting the load data. I will give the load a try as I'm pretty sure I have the 4320 powder and know I have the 350 oregon lasercast bullets. The fairly full cases yet moderate recoil sound perfect. It sounds like you got a good load there. Please let us know how you do with the 3031.

Next question  Wink Just picked up a pound of Fg (Fg, not FFg or FFFg) and was wondering about anybody's experience with it. I would NOT run a wad or card under the bullet, and do know that as long as the lasercast bullets are used the barrel would need to be cleaned every few shots. Have read some about duplex loading with various powders on the internet, and some is shown in various reloading manuals like Lyman 41 for the 45-70 (yes I know I have 45-75 and 350g bullets) with a 500g lead bullet with Fg and 5 grains of 4759 for fouling removal but don't like the idea of duplex loading. Will be casting my own bullets so will be able to use some BP specific lubes.

Anybody got any ideas?
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larryo_1
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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2015, 07:32:48 pm »

Space Commander:
I have real good luck with 76 grains of Swiss1˝ BP.  Also I have good luck with 22.0 grains of 2400 powder with a tuft of Kapok to keep the powder on the primer.  My rifle has the Uberti chamber.
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75 « previous next »
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