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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Loading Data for the 45/75  (Read 41221 times)
Grizzly Adams
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« on: May 09, 2014, 06:22:10 pm »


At the suggestion of Postman63, I am setting stickies for load data.  If you have pet loads for the 45/75 WCF, please share them here.  As always, use caution when posting and when using data posted on this and any other forum.  Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2014, 12:28:32 pm »

Well Griz, After trying almost 20 different powders and loads, I have a couple here that I like  as does my rifle.  The first one is one that I found in Ken Waters book and modified it a wee bit by adding a tuft of Kapok to the load.  This one shoots very well and gives an average velocity of 1398 fps.  I use a Hoch Custom bullet cast to 350 grains and a 16:1 alloy.  It has a nice mild recoil.  The other one that I enjoy,  and get a "KICK" out of it is 76.0 grains of Swiss 1˝ Black Powder.  This load generates about 23 ft lbs of recoil.  BUT--it is damn accurate in my rifle that is. It generates about 1440 fps.  These are the two loads that I load the most of and have the most fun with.  Hope this generates some interest.
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2014, 03:33:46 pm »

350 Grn. Lazercast bullet. Shockey gold powder compressed load. 63 Grains measured with a Black Powder measure, not by weight, but by volume. clean burning and plenty of smoke so it looks great. 4 inch groups at 100 yards with my old eyes and Ubertis standard sights. 1350 to 1410 ft. per sec. at the muzzle.
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 09:42:56 pm »

I have no intention of hot rodding my '76.  I have '86s to do that.  But saw an article from 1/2010 on the Uberti web site that quoted 29K psi as a max for these newer 1876 guns.   Shocked

http://www.uberti.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-review-pdfs/centennial-jan2010gunsammo.pdf

Which would take the new '76 into the Class 2 rifle territory.

That ought to get one up there with a 300 and 350gr bullet with the right smokeless.  Anyone tried H4831, 4831SC or H4895?

I've had good luck with all three in big cases.
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2014, 10:30:52 am »

Yahoody:
I have tried H-4831 and 4831-SC.  My best results were with using the old style 4831 and the best was using the old style H-4831.  I did get some unburned powder grains in the cases after firing which only amounted to about 0.27grains. The bullet that I use is a "Hoch" custom 350 grain flat nose and is cast in an alloy of 16:1 which is one that I got off  box of original factory ammo.  To go on further, I also used a cardboard wad of 0.044" thickness along with CCI 250 mag primers.  In a 10 shot string run through my chrono  I got an average velocity of 1502 fps and a SD of 21.1fps.  The free recoil was 20 foot pounds.  The cases that I used were fire-formed WWW348 brass.

I did not get this type of performance out of the other 4831 powders.  The other load that I really like is 22.0 grains of 2400 powder and a tuft of kapok over the powder and with the same bullet.  As far as using 4895--I have had no need to try this as I like what I got.  Hope this helps.  One other thing--my rifle has the larger "Uberti" chamber. And, in closing,  I feel-like what you said about "hot-rodding" this rifle.  I, also have '86's to play with.
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 02:30:39 pm »

Thanks Larry.  I am curious to see who my gun likes the slow burning smokeless loads.  Figured someone else had already BTDT.

While poking around today I saw this, "Accurate Arms states the new version of the 1876 can handle pressures up to 27,000psi. "

Anyone seen that reference from Accurate Arms? 

Beginning to think the new '76 could be a REALLY fun rifle with the right smokeless.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 07:40:01 pm »

I don't know where they get those pressures but I--for one would not attempt it.  My loads--on a Crowley computer run about 18-19K and that is enough for this old buzzard.  Keep the fps down to 1200-1500 and there should never be a problem.  It would not be wise to try to "hot-rod" one of these rifle.  A person might wind up with a face full of splinters.  Even tho these new '76's are made of stronger stuff than the old ones, they still are based on the original actions and therefore are/could be prone to problems.
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2014, 01:04:48 am »

"It would not be wise to try to "hot-rod" one of these rifle."

Agreed 100%  And no intention of doing so.  The real  question is what is the rifle easily capable of?  No reason to hot rod a '76 near max but also no reason IMO to let mid range performance lag behind with 100+ year old loading data either.

Trap door loads are one level.  Low pressure '86 performance would be a big jump for the '76 if it is both safe and sane.

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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2014, 01:32:48 am »

I have an NWMP repro '76, and a Browning '86SRC. I only use BP in the first, and smokeless in the other. Even then, I have no reason to run them over BP Express mvs of about 1400 fps. If you want a buffalo gun, get one. If you want to take a cape buffalo, get a .458Win Mag. Within their design ranges, they are already quite capable of downing any North American game. (Well, Maybe Kodiaks?)

The point in using historical reproductions is to get a feel for living the period. (Besides health and safety plus some creature comforts.) There isn't much point in extending their power levels just because you might be able to. 

That is my humble opinion.  Smiley  You are graciously permitted to differ.
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2014, 02:05:27 am »

Every one gets an opinion.  You can shoot your gun in any manner they choose.  Makes no matter to me if you want to shoot blanks or blow your gun up.

What I want to know is what is the design and metallurgy capable of in a modern '76.  No more and no less.

Many, many reasons to own and shoot any gun.

"The point in using historical reproductions is to get a feel for living the period."

That reasoning might even be a tiny part of my own ownership, or not.  Either way it doesn't have much to do with the knowledge of what the modern '76 is safely capable of however.

Load data here:

http://outlawswinchesters.jouwweb.nl/winchester-1876
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2014, 12:20:06 pm »

I love this quote, which should be included in the heading for this board;

The late William B. Ruger once said the Model 1876 was "Just a piece of wood and steel." Hesitating, he added, "But it's a damn elegant piece of wood and steel."

Yahoody; Did I notice in your linked article that the Chapparals should handle 28K psi? I came across an article once that described an amazing proof test that exceeded all expectations. Modify: I see that you quoted the passage on the other thread.

BTW; I try to stick with what I know by experience or from reading authoritative material, unless I so state. I will personally follow the biased opinion I stated above. And I am unanimous in that! Wink
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2014, 12:26:39 pm »

Chapparals?  I look at them as a "kit gun".  A set of parts you buy and then finish to make a real gun ;-)

This is the quote I find interesting. 

"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

 
Being active in the gun industry at  many levels the last 30 years I have seen so much ignorance represented as "fact" I make a point of checking the well know "facts" out myself.  Beginning to think the "weak" '76 was a historical "fact" based in fiction.
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2014, 05:40:42 pm »

I have often heard that the 1876 action is a weak design, but the only first hand report on an 1876 blowing up was by Mike Ventura.  It that case it was an original that was fired with a double load of smokeless powder.  The rifle was a 45-75 and the action didn't fail the bottom of the chamber blew out where it is thinner because of the magazine tube.

My opinion is the action in the modern reproductions is stronger than most people believe.  In my 45-60 I worked up some 300 grn. loads over 1800 fps.  In my 1876 with the big Italian chamber in 45-75 I have exceeded 1900 fps.  My guns can handle the hotter loads but my body doesn't like them much.

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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2014, 06:23:32 am »

I'd love to see the new Uberti's tested with smokeless loads like Winchester did with black powder.

The action is stronger than a lot of people think, but it's still not nearly as strong as a modern action.

The real trouble is that despite what Winchester did for testing, smokeless powder can generate extreme pressures very switly by double charging and using a fast burning powder by mistake.

Even a Ruger #1 can be blown up with the wrong charge, might take C4 to do it, but I bet it could be done.
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2014, 02:50:14 pm »

Quote from: will
The action is stronger than a lot of people think, but it's still not nearly as strong as a modern action.
.....Even a Ruger #1 can be blown up with the wrong charge, might take C4 to do it, but I bet it could be done.

We can blow up anything Smiley   Not as strong as a modern action?  That leaves a lot on the table.  Not as strong as a '86 no question.  Not as strong as a '98 Mauser of course.  Lot happening in firearms design between 1860 and 1900.  But I'd have to wonder if  anyone has done any testing on the newest versions of the '73/'76.   

Edit:

This from Uberti today via their tech support on the phone.:

"Our '76 is good with any powder/bullet combo that the pressure does not exceed 28,000 CUP." 

 Which is also typically the pressure limit of any black powder load data listed for any big bore cartridge. 

Most loading manuals split the trap door and 1886 Winchester 45-70 loads by pressures.  The Trapdoor max is listed as 25,000cup.  Lyman's 49th Edition lists the '86 Winchester and Marlin '95 @ 28,000cup.    The newest Marlin 1895 however gets listed else where  @ 40,000cup.   Just be sure at what data you are looking at when you start deciding on load data you want to use.  Also a difference in what kind of pressures a 45-60 generate and a 45-75 generate everything else being equal.  Smaller the case capacity the higher the pressures generally.  Remember the longer the bullet the less case capacity you have and the higher the pressures.  Easy to go from 24K to 40K in one slight error on judgment with a heavy bullet set too deep.  Getting the right OAL on cartridges is a big deal in a '76.  All the '76 cartridges were intentionally designed as light for caliber bullets.   350gr in the 45-70, 300gr in the 50-95. 

HUGE difference between 28K and 40K in pressure.  The Ruger #1 will take 50,000cup.  50K are true magnum pressures that will stick a bolt gun tight if exceeded or blow a lever gun apart.

Load them up...just be really careful when you do!
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2014, 09:36:31 pm »

I guess that is your answer right there. Cool
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2014, 10:38:15 pm »

Quote from: Sir Charles
I guess that is your answer right there. Cool


I do indeed.  Only took a couple of days and a few phone calls to get past the party line of ""Our '76 is good with any powder/bullet combo that the pressure does not exceed 28,000 CUP." 

Which is also typically the pressure limit of any black powder load data listed for any big bore cartridge.

Which would seem obvious but them you can only stuff so much BP in any of these cartridges.  Problem solved by volume but it means nothing if you are shooting smokeless.


Most loading manuals split the trap door and 1886 Winchester 45-70 loads by pressures.  The Trapdoor max is listed as 25,000cup.  Lyman's 49th Edition lists the '86 Winchester and Marlin '95 @ 28,000cup. 

This is the point that has not been made any where that I have seen.  Winchester '86 loads  by some manuals might be considered "safe" in the modern '76 by that information and definition.

Bigger the bore, generally less the pressure, everything else being equal.  Not seen anyone mention that either.

The newest Marlin 1895 however gets listed else where  @ 40,000cup.   Just be sure at what data you are looking at when you start deciding on load data you want to use.  Also a difference in what kind of pressures a 45-60 generate and a 45-75 generate everything else being equal.  Smaller the case capacity the higher the pressures generally.  Remember the longer the bullet the less case capacity you have and the higher the pressures.  Easy to go from 24K to 40K in one slight error on judgment with a heavy bullet set too deep.  Getting the right OAL on cartridges is a big deal in a '76.  All the '76 cartridges were intentionally designed as light for caliber bullets.   350gr in the 45-70, 300gr in the 50-95.

Shooting Black  is fun and historically correct.  But no doubt many more modern '73s being shot with smokeless than BP.  I 'll shoot BP in my '76 as well.  But I'll put a lot more rounds down range with any firearm, Henry or '76 with smokeless.  Figure most shooters will.  Which is why this info needs to be public and easily accessible.


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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2014, 03:14:40 pm »

Yahoody,

Thanks for the information.

Silver Rings
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2014, 03:21:20 pm »

Silver, I hope it helps the next guy.  I wanted to thank you for all the info you, LarryO and others have added to the reloading data for the '76 as well.  Your loading data for the 45-60 and 45-75 was a big help to me.

Me?  I am still waiting for 45/75 brass so I made up some dummie 45/60s to cycle through my gun while I waited Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2014, 06:57:05 pm »

All of this begs the question of how most of us laymen w/out measuring devices measure pressure Huh  As an old reloader once said to me "about the time you start seeing pressure, it may be too late."
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2014, 07:11:14 pm »

Quote from: matt
All of this begs the question of how most of us laymen w/out measuring devices measure pressure ?

You don't if you are smart.  You use what the books suggest.  Really hard to do with cartridges that aren't listed.  45/70 data would be a starting point.  Some have mentioned a 1:1 ratio for the Trapdoor or low pressure '86 loads compared to 1876 loads.   That 45/70 data should be on the low side for 300g and 350gr bullets in the bigger 45/75 case and should be on the high side for the smaller 45-60 case and a 300gr bullet.

Enough published data on smokeless powders and appropriate bullet weights is to make good choices.

All this is really interesting if you have played as much as I have with the '86 in 45 or 50 Alaskan.

.45 and .50 in the '76 are just the earlier and short versions of those wild cat rounds.
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2014, 07:11:43 pm »

So, after reading all this, I come to the conclusion that Group 1 (trapdoor) loadings for 45-70 are a good starting point to reload 45-75?
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2014, 09:11:10 pm »

Hobie was my online guru when I started;

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.ca/2007/12/thoughts-on-reloading-1876-45-75.html

And here is the link to his NWMP carbine page, which has several smokeless loads;

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.ca/2007/04/winchester-1876-src-nwmp-reproduction.html
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« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2014, 06:58:57 pm »

So, after reading all this, I come to the conclusion that Group 1 (trapdoor) loadings for 45-70 are a good starting point to reload 45-75?

In my opinion, if you are loading 300 grn. lead bullets in the 45-75, then trapdoor 45-70 loads for 300 grn. bullets would be a good starting point.

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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2014, 02:41:07 am »

I am not a big fan of BP.   Hobie's article was good but not very much new or in depth info there.  Mind you I am not advocating hot rodding the newer and stronger 1876 Reproductions here.  But where it is suggested nothing faster than 2400 and 100% powder loads I agree and suggest looking even farther.  Nothing wrong with using Smokeless and easily duplicating the old BP velocities either in the new guns.  I have no interest in duplicating BP loads or using fast burning smokeless powders to partially fill 45-75 cases and risk disaster.   

IMR 4198 and 3031, H 4895 and 4831 all seem appropriate from what I see and other's experience.  And all are much, much slower than 2400.  And with the right powder you can have 100% of the case volume filled with bullet and powder.  Just as the original cartridge design intended.  Now we have new rifles made from modern ballistic quality steel and tight tolerances to finally see how capable the new 1876s are. 

In Hornady's 9th Edition there are 146 powders listed.  Fast to slow..#1 being the fastest burning.  #146 the slowest 

Bulleye is #2. Alliant 2400 is #46, 4198 #64, H 4198 #65,  3031 is 69, H 4895 #79,  IMR 4320 # 95, H4831 #125,  H4831SC #126,  Pyrodex CTG #144.

The 45-75 is (the Uberti chamber makes it even closer)  a short version of the .45 Alaskan wild cat.  Which is .348 Win brass necked up to 45.  .50 Alaskan is a .348 necked up to .50  cal.  Both mimic the earlier '76 WCF loads.  Difference is both are loaded hot with heavy for caliber bullets and high pressures in a 1886 or '71 Winchester.  Loaded and shot lots of both.   Way too hot for a '76 and not needed for most anything short of a big bear charge.   ( even then factory .45 or .50 BP vel. would likely do just as well)   Also loaded .505 in a Rigby case and a 505 Gibbs.  4320 and 4831 both work well with big cases and big bullets.  And they seem to work pretty good in the 45-75.  Nice that it is clearly impossible to double charge your '76 using the slowest of these powders.

Group below was shot today off a sand bag rest @ 50 yards using 58gr. of 4831SC with a 350gr lead Oregon trail bullet, magnum primers and a tight crimp on the groove.  There is getting to be some recoil you might notice with my 20" gun.  Gun and load clearly can shoot better than I can.  Same load with a similar 300gr bullet was more fun to shoot but left some unburnt powder.

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