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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: quality of powders? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Capnball
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Deo Vindice!


« on: March 06, 2014, 05:27:29 pm »


I know Swiss has the best rep, and I've always burned Goex, how do these other brands and types rate? What's the difference in FG and FA grades/grading? This place has some good prices. I bought five thousand musket caps from them last year and was very pleased with the service. The fellow was nice to talk to, too

Website: http://www.addictedtoblackpowder.com/2.html


   
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Jordan Goodwin, aka Capnball

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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 05:41:37 pm »

FA powders are fireworks powders.
 Elephant and Diamondback aren't being made any more so disreguard the info on them.
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Capnball
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 08:30:21 pm »

He might still have some in stock... Wouldn't hurt to call. Here's a good summary of info to answer my own question:

Borrowed from "Visaman" on The Firing Line Forums:

Black powder types are purchased and described by 'grades'. The grades
carry numbers or designations to declare their granule sizes, and their
relative speeds of burning. Those numbers are familiar to pyrotechnicians -
the famous 'F' numbers. Powders come in two broad basic grades, 'a' grade,
or blasting powder, and 'g' grade, or 'sporting' (shooter's) powder.

The more "F"s in a number, the smaller the granule size, and thus, the
faster the powder will burn. So, FFa powder is slower, with a larger
granule size than FFFa, and FFFg is faster than Fg.

The primary difference between 'a' and 'g' grades is processing. Both
powders begin as milled 'meal' powder. The potassium nitrate, charcoal and
sulfur are milled into an extremely fine powder. This milling process takes
many hours and is usually done by remotely operated equipment due to the
inherent danger of the process. The meal powder is consolidated under high
pressure into a 'mill cake' or 'press cake' of solid Black Powder by
hydraulic press. The cake is dried, and crushed into grains. Both types are
then screened to remove fines, and to grade the grain sizes.

Subsequent polishing of the powders may be done in a tumbler. Blasting "a"
type powders are not usually tumbled. If they are tumbled, it is just for a
short time to knock off any sharp an d long projections. Sporting "g" type
powders are tumbled with a tiny amount of graphite to polish the grains.
The base formula is the same. The graphite is not part of the basic Black
Powder formula.

The graphite does act as a burn rate modifier, slowing the burn rate
slightly. But primarily, the graphite serves as a surface lubricant to
make the powder flow more easily when loading guns. It also serves the
cosmetic purpose of making the powder shiny and pretty. The grain sizes
are different for sporting and blasting Black Powder.

Note, as shown in the tables below, that it is conventional to express 'g'
type powder types with multiple 'F's followed by a lower-case 'g', while
'a' grade powders wear a number before one 'F', and a capital "A". So,
"three F g" powder is written as "FFFg", while "three F a" powder is written
as "3FA". This convention is thought to have b een instituted so that less
confusion would exist between powder types.
For a given number of Fs, 'a' grade powder is coarser and slower-burning
than 'g' grades, notwithstanding the graphite polish on the 'g' types.

Sporting Grade Black Powder -- "g" type powders

Powder Grade pass screen, holding, stays on, passing

Whaling 32/64" mesh 3% 4 mesh 12%
Lifesaving 6 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
Cannon 6 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
Saluting 10 mesh 3% 20 mesh 12%
Fg 12 mesh 3% 16 mesh 12%
FFg 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%
FFFg 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
FFFFg 40 mesh 3% 100 mesh 12%
FFFFFg (no longer manufactured by Goex)

____________________________________________________________________________

"A" Blasting Powder
used mostly by pyrotechnicians and for some specialized quarry work

Powder Grade passes screen holding stays on, passing

FA 20/64" mesh 3% 5 mesh 12%
2FA 4 mesh 3% 12 mesh 12%
3FA 10 mesh 3% 16 mesh 12%
4FA 12 mesh 3% 20 mesh 12%
5FA 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
6FA 30 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%
7FA 40 mesh 3% 100 mesh 12%
Meal D 40 mesh 3%
Meal F 100 mesh 3%
Meal XF 140 mesh 3%

*** Shows maximum percentages held or passed by the sizing screens.

Commonly used Black Powder Grain Mesh Sizes
GRADE MESH RANGE
FA 3 - 5
2FA 4 - 12
3FA 10 - 16
4FA 12 - 20
5FA 20 - 50
6FA 30 - 50
7FA 40 - 100

Sporting Grades (G) Grain Size (in mm) mm)

Cannon Grade
1FG 1.68-1.19
2FG 1.19-.59
3FG .84-.29
4FG .42-.15
5FG .149

Blasting Grades (A) Grain Size (in mm)
1FA 8.0-4.0
2FA 4.76-1.68
4FA 1.68-.84

5FA .84-.297
7FA .42-.149
Meal D .42
Fine .149


Except where noted in inches, the screen sizes are in wires per inch. The
higher the mesh number the smaller the opening size. Note that, for any
given number of "F"s, that the blasting powder is much coarser.


If you ignore the 'F' numbers, for a given measured grain size, the blasting
powder burns faster than the graphite-inhibited sporting powder; That's
partly because of the inhibiting action of the graphite, and partly because
of the geometry of the grains.

Blasting powder is less dense because the grains are more irregularly
shaped; they take up more volume for a given weight of powder. Blasting
powder grains also have a lot of rough edges. Rough edges both inhibit
packing of grains, and offer lots of easy-to-ignite sites on each grain.
The combination of more air space between grains, and the rougher surfaces
of the grains promotes faster burning.

so, what kind of grade do i use for xx caliber ?
GRADE BORE WIDTH EXAMPLE OF GUN

F .50 or greater model cannon; shotguns and rifles over
12 bore (.72 caliber).
FF .36 - .50 large pistols; small rifles
FFF .36 or smaller pistols; derringers
FFFF priming powder for flintlocks.

Sometimes, gunpowder grades are mentioned using P's instead of F's.. So, PP
equeals 2F oand so on..


So, my next question is, can "A" grade Black Powder be used safely and successfully in firearms?
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Jordan Goodwin, aka Capnball

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hellgate
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 10:39:16 pm »

I have used 5FA as a substitute for FFFg for years. It is cheaper to buy a 25 lb sack of 5FA and put it into 1 lb cans than buy 25 cans of FFFg.
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 11:12:41 pm »

I like KIK.  Available from Powder Inc.  Burns about as clean as Swiss, and about as accurate out to 600 yards.  I use 2F in my .44-40 and it works for me!  Use a good lube and clean your gun with non-petroleum products.  I use Ballistol Moose Milk to clean then use Ballistol Oil to preserve.  BigLubeInc. (Dick Dastardly) sells good lube and he advertises on this site, and he's good to deal with! Good luck!  Bob
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john boy
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 12:03:01 am »

Quote
Borrowed from "Visaman" on The Firing Line Forums:
CapnBall ... that's one hell of an excellent post.  Thanks!

Quote
So, my next question is, can "A" grade Black Powder be used safely and successfully in firearms?
Sure can!  I shoot Goex "Skirmish", a 1FA grade powder in shotgun reloads and 3FA long range (1000yds) in my 45-90 only.  Works good in the 45-90 - compressed hard.  No reason not to load blasting powder in other calibers but your going to find more foul because it is not a sporting grade powder
PS:  Keep the 3FA in a 45-90 low key ... a fellow BPCR shooter put me on to it  Wink

http://www.powderinc.com/cgi-bin/bpstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=order.htm&ORDER_ID=299971594
Product: Skirmish Powder
#1 1 pound cans  (Suitable for Cannon)
#3 1 pound cans  (Suitable for Rifle or Pistol)
  5 lb. lot: $21.15 per lb.
10 lb. lot: $15.90 per lb.
25 or 50 lb. lot: $12.30 per lb.
Price includes shipping and hazmat fee.
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Capnball
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 04:42:03 pm »

Thanks guys! Now, next stupid question: Wano 4FA. In .45 Colt? On the Schuetzen website, they describe the 4FA as being a mix of grain sizes, from the equivalent of about Fg down to about FFFg, if I'm using the above charts correctly. A-grade powder is supposed to burn hotter per a given grain size than G-grade. I'm currently using FFFg in a .45 Colt revolver and I want to know how this stuff will compare. I don't want to lose a lot of velocity over standard FFFg, but I also don't want to blow myself up with over-powered powder. I know if this "mixed" powder were G-grade (normal stuff), it would make for a less-powerful load per volume than pure FFFg. But, being supposedly faster-burning, would it even out some? Or is this stuff just too different to even bother fooling with in a revolver? I'm not likely to try Wano 4FA in my gun, until I find some good info proving that its safe, and comparative to normal G-grade powders in performance.
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Jordan Goodwin, aka Capnball

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Reckon so.
Capnball
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Deo Vindice!


« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 03:16:58 pm »

Here is an EXCELLENT source of info I found on blackpowder manufacturing and quality. Look at the links for the different brands... Wish he had a few more current articles...

Numerous tests are conducted on the various powders, and lots of interesting info on powder imports, etc.

Here's the link:   http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm
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Jordan Goodwin, aka Capnball

"Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight." (Ps. 144:1)

Reckon so.
brazosdave
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 07:26:05 am »

I haven't found any commercial powder that is superior to the press cake that I make myself. Much cheaper too.  There is labor and equipment purchase involved of course, but i have gained far more than i have spent.
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 11:38:54 pm »

Brazosdave
I make my own BP too (Brush hippies recipe)  and i know that my powder burns faster and just as clean as Goex.
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 04:11:33 pm »

I don't mean to be rude, but I have had a question in the back of my head ever since I read a comment on YOU TUBE attached to a clip on making your own BP. A woman commented that she upped the potential of the powder she made by substituting her urine for the water mentioned by the guy in the clip towards the end of the process. She further commented that it produced a noticeable odor but the performance was worth the odor. Here's the question: Given that she was telling the truth, I imagine that the active ingredient was ammonia and it seems that using actual ammonia would be much easier to produce a uniform mix. Can anyone comment on any of this?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
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St8LineLeatherSmith
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 11:13:48 pm »

water for what, making the pucks?
the only water used is a tiny amount mixed in  for the  gun meal to stick together in order to screen the powder
I have heard that they used to make potaisum nitrate with urine
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« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 08:17:15 am »

water for what, making the pucks?
the only water used is a tiny amount mixed in  for the  gun meal to stick together in order to screen the powder
I have heard that they used to make pourinetassum nitrate with urine

Back in the day when the British Empire was still an empire, human waste was collected in buckets to produce black powder.  And I believe it's Potassium Nitrate.
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2014, 08:42:20 am »

By the way Diamondback is being made...

For some reason the US is not allowing import - not sure why...

PR
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