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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  CAS FAQ (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Will Ketchum)  |  Topic: Rifle accuracy??? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Rifle accuracy???  (Read 13501 times)
rdstrain49
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« on: January 30, 2014, 05:57:10 pm »


Just wondering what is considered to be an accurate rifle.  Most of the descriptions I've read tell me nothing about the accuracy of any given rifle.  In general, are the rifles (cas type) capable of shooting i" groups at 100 yards, 3", 10", just what is considered accurate?
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Shotgun Franklin
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 07:17:47 pm »

I've never had need to sight a CAS rifle at anything beyond 50 yards. My last rifle, a WW M94 in .45 Colt would shoot a 2" group at that range. I might sight in my '73 Replica just to see.
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 07:24:10 pm »

They can be pretty accurate. I have used Uberti .44-40 rifles (Henry/1873) to cleanly kill white-tail deer from 30 to 100 yards +/- with no problems.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 08:11:37 pm »

Are we talkin' from the bench or off hand? I never shoot CAS rifles from the bench as I feel it proves nothing, as I EXPECT all my rifles to shoot well benched.

Off hand, my Henry and B-92 have no problem keeping all their shots in the 8" bull at 100m. My '66 is lucky to keep them in 10", which is certainly minute of steel Cowboy.

The Henry rings the 24" 200m gong offhand by using the 200 yd setting on the ladder and holding at 12 o'clock. I watch scoped rifles miss after that .....
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rdstrain49
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 08:50:03 pm »

Guess I'm too picky.  I won't keep any military bolt rifle that won't shoot 2" or better at 100 yds.  Most all others must shoot better than 1" at 100 yds and better than 2" at 200 yards or I just won't keep them.  The thought of spending upwards of $1,000.00 for an Italian replica that won't shoot with any degree of real accuracy, kind of sticks in my craw.  I'm still really interested but-----

I'd be very interested to hear from those that have done accuracy testing and load development.  Thanks to all for the replies, I'm still trying to get the whole CAS thing sorted out.
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TheOtherLeft
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2014, 09:27:20 pm »

Since this is a CAS-specific website considering you're shooting at massive steel plates out to 25m, sub-1MOA accuracy just isn't required. Unless you're shooting in the side-matches that is. I consider 1 MOC (Minute of Cowboy) to be plenty accurate enough.

Regarding load development, CAS gamers load to achieve the lightest recoil not the most accurate. I load to minimum for both low-recoil and to save on powder. I can often see the projectile flying through the air when watching other people.

The game is about speed not hitting bulls.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 09:31:13 pm »

No offence, but it doesn't sound like you are really going to be happy with the accuracy potential of CAS rifles.

SASS 16" x 16" targets are at close range and hard to miss, even at 50 yds. We play "Cowboy" with Cowboy guns. Most of us find they have more than enough accuracy for the game as well as the taking of game within their potential.
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2014, 10:23:44 pm »

Guess I'm too picky.  I won't keep any military bolt rifle that won't shoot 2" or better at 100 yds.  Most all others must shoot better than 1" at 100 yds and better than 2" at 200 yards or I just won't keep them.  The thought of spending upwards of $1,000.00 for an Italian replica that won't shoot with any degree of real accuracy, kind of sticks in my craw.  I'm still really interested but-----

I'd be very interested to hear from those that have done accuracy testing and load development.  Thanks to all for the replies, I'm still trying to get the whole CAS thing sorted out.

With my 44wcf black powder loads mine are minute of deer kill zone out to 100 yards. Grin They will consistently hit silhouette targets at 200-250 if I do my part. You will find that load development is taken pretty serious among certain ones of us but your not driving tacks like you would with a 6mm PPC.

I would be crazy to expect the same accuracy out of a stubby low b.c. lead projectile traveling at a max 1300 FPS as I would out of my 7 mag with a high b.c. projectile and a 3260 fps muzzle velocity.

If you expect that out of ALL of your rifles then a pistol caliber lever action might not be for you.

Now if you want to go out and have a ton of fun with firearms using them for their intended purpose then welcome to the campfire.

I will also say that if accuracy is your game then NCOWS will fit you much better than SASS. Targets are much farther and accuracy is rewarded with the higher deductions for misses.
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rdstrain49
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2014, 11:31:43 pm »

No offence, but it doesn't sound like you are really going to be happy with the accuracy potential of CAS rifles.

SASS 16" x 16" targets are at close range and hard to miss, even at 50 yds. We play "Cowboy" with Cowboy guns. Most of us find they have more than enough accuracy for the game as well as the taking of game within their potential.


None taken.  I'll not go into my background as it's not pertinent.  The reason I'm inquiring about the potential rifle accuracy and other varied topics is because I know nothing about the various cowboy action type disciplines.  Any and all input is welcome and very much appreciated.
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 02:13:33 am »

The accuracy of these rifles is dependant upon a great many factors, but good accuracy at 100 yards is achievable. The fellow you should ask is W44WCF - he has pursued these things !

from one of his posts from another forum:
Farm Boy,
My '94 Cowboy .45 Colt also has the 38" twist and it shoots bullets up to 350 grs. AOK. With 4227 and 250 gr. bullets, I found that the best groups came with 24-26 grs.

Had 1 group @ 100 yards that measured 1 3/4" using 4227 and bullets I made from a Lee 250 gr. RNFP mold.

Good luck.
JOhn

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rdstrain49
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2014, 10:17:43 am »

Thanks Prof. that sounds encouraging.  Cliff, I agree re BC and down range ballistics, however I shoot a Keith style cast slug in 41 Mag that will consistently group 4 to 5" groups at 200 meters.  Can't see any reason why a good rifle wouldn't do as well, but as I have stated repeatedly, I don't know anything about cowboy action stuff or some of the equipment used.  Just trying to get it right the first time.  Thanks again for the input.

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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2014, 11:44:31 am »

Achieving the accuracy potential of any rifle requires detailed experimentation and load development. Many CAS people are willing to do the work, including several on this forum.
Even more are likely to crank out volume reloads with acceptable accuracy and practice their shooting skills. And not all CAS competitors are into 'wimp' loads that barely make it to the target and bounce off wood.

I think it's embarrassing when the "plink" of the bullet on steel makes more noise than the report of the rifle, but that's just me.
I write up stages all the time that have to be changed to accommodate the fact many rifle loads are so quiet that they don't register on timers! That means no rifles at the end of a stage. Now that is pathetic.

Most of the CAS folks I know and associate with are either into BP or smokeless equivalent. We happily let the IPSC shooters in Cowboy Boots chase each other .... ;>) There are enough categories to let everyone have a good time.
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2014, 12:40:51 pm »

Thanks Prof. that sounds encouraging.  Cliff, I agree re BC and down range ballistics, however I shoot a Keith style cast slug in 41 Mag that will consistently group 4 to 5" groups at 200 meters.  Can't see any reason why a good rifle wouldn't do as well, but as I have stated repeatedly, I don't know anything about cowboy action stuff or some of the equipment used.  Just trying to get it right the first time.  Thanks again for the input.



With the right combination they are capable of the accuracy your speaking of but.....depending on your eyes with the sights set up in order to do that consistently probably wont be the best sight set up for most cowboy action shooting.

Long range and most CAS is two different things, close and fast compared to fine long range aiming and squeezing off the shot.

I don't expect you use that same handgun your making those 200 meter shots with for your concealed carry gun. You COULD, but I doubt it's the most concealable or lightweight to carry around comfortably all day.



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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2014, 12:56:22 pm »

What Cliff said.,,,,,Dusty
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rdstrain49
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2014, 02:26:43 pm »

PJ, even though I don't know anything about CSA yet, I can't find anything to disagree with you.  I still shoot my great grandfathers No.3 and don't shoot light loads in it.  I only shoot full house BP loads.  The accuracy of that 150 yr old weapon still amazes me every time I shoot it and I've been shooting it for over 50 years
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2014, 07:03:54 pm »

CSA? Howd'we get onto the Confederate States of America .... ;>)

I share your thoughts and feelings re: military rifles. I have a Belgian FN Mauser in .30-'06, a Springfield '03 and a Springfield M1. All are capable of fine accuracy. I expect even more from my 'tacticool' .308. I don't expect the same level of accuracy from my CAS rifles.

I have come to expect great accuracy from my Shiloh Sharps rifles, both percussion and cartridge models. That aspect of CAS might be what your looking for. But again - it takes load development and loading finesse.
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 07:28:12 pm »

As Professor Marvel said, you might be interested to check out posts by 44WCF, check in the Winchester 73 and Henry forums. Also, Captain Montgomery Little is into long range shooting,(like 5-600 yards with a Henry) but you'll have to search a bit, he doesn't post a lot lately.
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rdstrain49
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 08:52:02 pm »

CSA? Howd'we get onto the Confederate States of America .... ;>)

I share your thoughts and feelings re: military rifles. I have a Belgian FN Mauser in .30-'06, a Springfield '03 and a Springfield M1. All are capable of fine accuracy. I expect even more from my 'tacticool' .308. I don't expect the same level of accuracy from my CAS rifles.

I have come to expect great accuracy from my Shiloh Sharps rifles, both percussion and cartridge models. That aspect of CAS might be what your looking for. But again - it takes load development and loading finesse.

A Freudian slip referring to the war of Northern Aggression.
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Camille Eonich
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 02:56:34 pm »


Regarding load development, CAS gamers load to achieve the lightest recoil not the most accurate.

This is just not true.  The fastest shooters want the bullet to get to the target and get the feed back as quickly as possible from the rifle and many have increased their loads to accomplish.  Handgun loads are quick loads with light recoil.  Too little power behind the load cost a really fast shooter time because they end up waiting for the feed back from the target. Also most have discovered that they want a really good clang on the target in order to make sure that they don't get charged a miss because spotters fail to actually watch the target to see the hit and instead rely on hearing the report.

On the other hand I did miss the "gamers" part of your statement.  Yes, many want to be winners attempt to download the ammo in order to shoot faster but as stated above the quickest shooters have learned that too slow of a load actually costs them.   Wink
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 02:58:27 pm »

Achieving the accuracy potential of any rifle requires detailed experimentation and load development. Many CAS people are willing to do the work, including several on this forum.
Even more are likely to crank out volume reloads with acceptable accuracy and practice their shooting skills. And not all CAS competitors are into 'wimp' loads that barely make it to the target and bounce off wood.

I think it's embarrassing when the "plink" of the bullet on steel makes more noise than the report of the rifle, but that's just me.
I write up stages all the time that have to be changed to accommodate the fact many rifle loads are so quiet that they don't register on timers! That means no rifles at the end of a stage. Now that is pathetic.



Well said PJ
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 05:04:32 pm »

I think it's embarrassing when the "plink" of the bullet on steel makes more noise than the report of the rifle, but that's just me.
I write up stages all the time that have to be changed to accommodate the fact many rifle loads are so quiet that they don't register on timers! That means no rifles at the end of a stage. Now that is pathetic.

Nicely said.

I thought the writeup in the new Speer reloading manual was interesting--that the reduced loads had become such an issue the author/editor felt compelled to address the point and his reasoning, that (besides the obvious danger some reduced loads had created) no man in the West would opt for reduced loads, was a sound argument. 

While I loaded Trail Boss for my first reloads (it wa sthe only powder I could procure that had data for the .44 Colt), my goal is to replicate original loads as much as is practicable, including in the future when I get a tad better at loading going to black powder loads. 

It should also be noted that besides gaming the clock, the other reason one finds reduced loads is that some shooters can't handle a full bore load.  One of my friends can't fire a full bore shotgun load, his shoulder is frail.  I don't begrudge him anything he does. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 06:47:28 pm »

Your friend ought to consider the 20 gauge. No shame in that.

As for load tolerance, I know several women who shoot .45 Colt and .44 Spl. standard loads just fine.

In 'Wild Bunch', my 120 lb. wife shoots her 1911 with the same 170 power factor she uses in IPSC as opposed to the SASS-legal 150.
She also shoots factory 1 oz. 12 ga. loads in her shotguns with no recoil pads.

I started her with 12 ga. 7/8 oz. handloads but she soon got up to speed with the 1 oz. factory ammo.
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 08:05:45 pm »

I started her with 12 ga. 7/8 oz. handloads but she soon got up to speed with the 1 oz. factory ammo.

I suggested that to my pal, he is having surgery and hopefully will be back to shooting regular field loads.  1 oz 12s are a pleasure to shoot. 
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 02:08:22 am »

i have an original 1919 .32-20 win.92 full mag rifle that will shoot 1 1/2" at 50yds all day, and a 30 yearold rossi .44-40 that shot a 3 shot group @50 off the bench of 3/4". not girlie loads either. depends what you want, i spend a lot of time at the range testing different loads to get the accuracy i do.
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rdstrain49
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 07:58:22 pm »

Mean Bob, you bring up a very valid point, that of shooter disability/limitation.  I would much rather see your friend shoot reduced loads then not shoot.
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