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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Gun Reviews (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Arcey)  |  Topic: 1873 Winchester in .44-40? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 1873 Winchester in .44-40?  (Read 35484 times)
Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2015, 09:22:18 am »

The factory firing pin extension on the Miroku is a mess and looks even worse.
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Cannon Jockey
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2015, 04:47:55 pm »

The factory firing pin extension on the Miroku is a mess and looks even worse.

Yes, but the world is so much a safer place now---well, at least maybe from a few dimwits and the lawyers who are willing to represent them in frivolous lawsuits Grin

Cheers
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2015, 11:29:48 pm »




Fortunately, over the week end, I found a solution to prevent this from ever happening again.   Pioneer Gunworks, who makes short stroke kits for Uberti's and the new Miroku's, also makes a replacement drop in firing pin extension that is a simple solid piece of metal.  This effectively eliminates the new safety block system and restores the gun to a more historically authentic configuration.  

I placed an order this week for two--one for each of my rifles at $40 a pop.



Cannon,
After you install you new bolt can you review how difficult it was to install one? I may do this with mine if the new 10 piece bolt/firing pin is a nuisance. Also, do you think you'll ever use the pioneer gun works short stroke kits? How are the actions on the Miroku's? Thanks
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2015, 12:41:41 am »

Cannon,
After you install you new bolt can you review how difficult it was to install one? I may do this with mine if the new 10 piece bolt/firing pin is a nuisance. Also, do you think you'll ever use the pioneer gun works short stroke kits? How are the actions on the Miroku's? Thanks

If I have time, I will try to photograph the steps.  It's not hard, but unless one has disassembled an 1873 before, I would not recommend it without some guidance.   I was one of those adventurous kids who tried to disassemble just about anything mechanical I came in contact with, so I tackled an 1873 when I was 13.    It only took me 2 or 3 tries to get it reassembled without having extra parts left over. Grin

The action on the Miroku's are quite smooth out of the box--at least much smother than any Uberti I have ever handled.   The springs are also light compared to the ham fisted heavy stuff that Uberti uses.   With the addition of a lever stroke that's about 15 degrees less that either a Uberti or an original, I presently don't see the need for any action work.  Of course a serious and well seasoned CAS competitor may have a totally different outlook on this.

As I understand it, those short stroke kits that Pioneer sells are not exactly drop in kits, but usually require fitting and adjustment.

The extension on the other hand is supposed to be just a simple swap out.

Cheers

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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2015, 09:24:24 am »

If I have time, I will try to photograph the steps.  It's not hard, but unless one has disassembled an 1873 before, I would not recommend it without some guidance.   I was one of those adventurous kids who tried to disassemble just about anything mechanical I came in contact with, so I tackled an 1873 when I was 13.    It only took me 2 or 3 tries to get it reassembled without having extra parts left over. Grin

The action on the Miroku's are quite smooth out of the box--at least much smother than any Uberti I have ever handled.   The springs are also light compared to the ham fisted heavy stuff that Uberti uses.   With the addition of a lever stroke that's about 15 degrees less that either a Uberti or an original, I presently don't see the need for any action work.  Of course a serious and well seasoned CAS competitor may have a totally different outlook on this.

As I understand it, those short stroke kits that Pioneer sells are not exactly drop in kits, but usually require fitting and adjustment.

The extension on the other hand is supposed to be just a simple swap out.

Cheers


Yeah no biggie. Don't go out of your way. I don't mean to bug you about it. I've had my Uberti apart several times so I'm sure I can handle it. I appreciate it!

Thanks Wink
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2015, 03:18:47 pm »

The replacement firing pin extensions arrived in the mail Saturday, but I had a function to attend, so I didn't get around to putting them in until today.

Here's the stock pin on left and the Pioneer Gunworks replacement on the right


One does not have to do a full breakdown to swap out the extension.    You only have to remove the side plates and the toggle links.

One tip, if your links still have tight tolerances, I have found that they come out and go back in easiest when fully retracted, i.e., with the lever fully extended.  The hammer being fully cocked in the process takes most of the tension out too.


Next there is a small loose fit retaining pin in the breech block to push out, which releases the extension from the block. This is different from a Uberti, since their extension is held in by a key that is released by pushing out the large pivot pin.


Now all one has to do is fully depress the hammer back far as it will go and there is just enough wiggle room for the extension to slide over it and fully out of the receiver.  

Reverse this process with the new extension.  The firing pin is under spring tension, so when you butt the extension up against it in the breech block, you will have to push a bit to make sure the retention pin enters the forward notch in the extension
  

Reassemble and done.  Including the cam lever, the internal pin, and spring plus two retaining pins--a total of five parts have been eliminated.



The only thing left from the safety system is a lug and it's retaining screw built in to the top of the receiver.  It can only be seen when the dust cover is in the forward position.     It's fairly unobtrusive and besides--removing it would leave a hole in the top of the receiver for dust and debris to enter.

I tested a couple of primed, but unloaded cartridges and got a nice even primer strike and ignition, so everything appears ready to go.


Cheers

Note:  I've been informed that Uberti's made prior to 2008 did not use the key and pivot pin to lock in the firing pin extension, but used the same smaller pin retainer like the Miroku does.   I only have one Italian 1873 older than 2008 and have never had occasion to have to disassembly it that far.   Anyway, this is just to clear up that point if one finds their selves needing to remove a Uberti firing pin extension from the breech block. 
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2015, 08:01:55 pm »

Great info. Thank you for sharing Robert!
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2015, 09:32:53 am »

Cannon Joceky you made an excellent point that...

"In the shot below, you can spot the more tapered barrel on the Miroku by the larger space between the barrel and the magazine tube."

These rifles are butt ugly at a glance in my opinion. The large gap under the barrel was the first thing I noticed about the one I saw in the store.
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Cannon Jockey
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« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2015, 01:46:10 pm »

Cannon Joceky you made an excellent point that...

"In the shot below, you can spot the more tapered barrel on the Miroku by the larger space between the barrel and the magazine tube."

These rifles are butt ugly at a glance in my opinion. The large gap under the barrel was the first thing I noticed about the one I saw in the store.

I would disagree about with calling the rifle butt ugly.  It is a beautiful rifle as it is.  However, it is simply not an authentic copy
of an original.    I don't demand that they make it so close that you can't tell the copy from an original for obvious reasons.

I also don't mind them finding ways to reduced the weight if it is not patently obvious.  Unfortunately for me the extreme barrel taper is patently obvious.    The only analogy I can come up with is that it is kind of like I purchased an expensive painted copy of the Mona Lisa---only to realize that the artist changed her hair color.  It might not look bad, it just doesn't look right.

By the way, I just noticed that Winchester has added a new model 1873 on their web site.  It is another sporting rifle with a 24 inch octagon barrel.  It now appears to be a regular catalog item but with this model the stock has the pistol grip design, which requires a curved finger lever.   I also noticed that the weight is listed at 8 lbs. rather than 7.5 like the one I have.  

I am wondering if this means they are correcting the barrel situation for the new model since a pistol grip stock simply could not account for an extra half pound.

I called the Winchester service desk to find out how to register my disappointment with the rifle.   The lady I talked to was nice and gave me an email address that would come to her.    She said to list my issue and she would forward it on to the proper people.  It's probably a waste of time, but I'm still going to follow through with it.

Cheers
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« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2015, 02:12:22 pm »


By the way, I just noticed that Winchester has added a new model 1873 on their web site.  It is another sporting rifle with a 24 inch octagon barrel.  It now appears to be a regular catalog item but with this model the stock has the pistol grip design, which requires a curved finger lever.   I also noticed that the weight is listed at 8 lbs. rather than 7.5 like the one I have.  


The new catalog rifle they added with the pistol grip is provided below. I'm not a fan of the curved lever on a 73. I don't mind the Uberti 1873 pistol grip with the straight lever but I seem I can't get passed the look of Winchester's new 73 with the pistol grip curved lever. Just my 2 cents.

Jeff


* image.jpg (11.16 KB, 600x218 - viewed 259 times.)
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2015, 05:20:14 pm »

Actually the Uberti special sporting rifle has both a curved finger lever and lower tang.  The Uberti is simply not as pronounced as the Miroku in the picture.

However, neither are the originals pictured in my R.L. Wilson book,  my original & reproduction catalogs, nor any of  the photos I have seen.   If this is true then the new offering from Miroku once again has been altered for no apparent reason.

I did send a rather lengthy email to the Winchester/Browning office explaining my issue with the new rifle.  It may not help, but at least I got it off my chest.


Cheers
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2015, 05:18:13 pm »

Being totally clueless, I rather like my new japchester 44-40
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2015, 11:18:11 am »

+1 to what capt. Dan said.
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JeffinTD
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« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2015, 04:37:19 pm »

I've got one of there in 357 with the octogon barrel and case hardened reciever.

Nice wood, nice fit and finish, and runs smoothly. I am aware of the tapered barrel and firing pin changes, and I guess I have no problems with them. I realized it isn't intended as a historically accurate reproduction, though I'm glad it didn't get a tang safety.

So far I haven't found a cast bullet load that produces decent accuracy, but am still experimenting.  


Anyway, I have a question for you guys:  I'd like to replace the semi-buckhorn rear with a flip up, preferably adjustable flat top sight, and add a tang peep sight. Suggestions?
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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2015, 09:57:58 pm »

I added a marbles improved tang base with a standard height post to my rifle. I suggest to remove the buckhorn sights and a a blank. I installed a williams blank. Work out well. If you add a tang sight the buckhorn will be in your view of the tang so I'd remove it. I actually tried to add a marbles sporting flip up/down rear buckhorn sight to go with my tang sight to be able to toggle between the two. Bad idea. The sporting flip up buckhorn didn't want to flip up without scraping off the blued finish on my barrel. Luckily I had a playing card between my barrel and adjustable sight so it didn't cause any damage. Let's see you gun. Post some pics. Would like to see it! Hope that helps ya.

Jeff
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2015, 10:53:25 pm »

Thanks for the super helpful reply. I'll skip the flip up and go with a blank.

I was looking at the Marbles standard peep, and the improved peep. It looked like the difference was interchangeable posts on the improved version for long range, which I don't see needing. Which one would you suggest, and why?

I'll have to get some photos of the gun. I also really hope to come up with a cast bullet load that gives decent accuracy.
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JeffinTD
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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2015, 12:52:57 am »

Another question. I see marble part 009809 listed for 1873 Winchester, but on some vender pages it says does not fit the new Winchester brand 1873.

It looks like 009832 might be the correct sight?   Not sure what screw kit either.

Marble's page doesn't seem to reference Miroku built rifles.

Anyway I'd appreciate a suggestion for a vendor or link to the correct sight, screws and dove tail blank if anyone has that.
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« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2015, 12:50:48 pm »

Another question. I see marble part 009809 listed for 1873 Winchester, but on some vender pages it says does not fit the new Winchester brand 1873.

It looks like 009832 might be the correct sight?   Not sure what screw kit either.

Marble's page doesn't seem to reference Miroku built rifles.

Anyway I'd appreciate a suggestion for a vendor or link to the correct sight, screws and dove tail blank if anyone has that.

I will save you a lot of time and confusion. This thanks to Canon Jockey as I went through the same thing. I'd order all of it through Brownells.com as they are cheaper than midway. However, I did order my Williams slot blank though midway. I liked the Williams slot blank cause it's not flashy and has an Allen wrench for adjustment so no hammering. It will fit a 3/8" dovetail which yours is.

Here is the link to midway.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/349947/williams-slot-blank-for-3-8-dovetails-aluminum-black

In the receipt on the Brownells pic disregard the SPORTING REAR NO. 95. I sent that back. You will need the PEEP SIGHT SCREW SET.  It will include the two tang screws need to mount your base. It will also come with a long screw (throw that aside, you won't need it). I chose the standard post as I think will work well for the range I'll shoot but if you choose to mount the mid-long range or long range post the numbers are 990120 & 990130.


* image.jpg (108.88 KB, 1528x599 - viewed 237 times.)
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2015, 01:13:43 pm »

Thank you very much.

I might wait a bit. I think I mentioned earlier I've been getting horrible accuracy especially with cast bullets and am thinking the gun might go back to Winchester.

A fella posted a link on a thead I started about trying to find an accurate load for cast bullets.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,52729.0.html

I'm starting to think I have a similar issue, as mine gives larger groups than what this guy was getting.
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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2015, 06:57:52 pm »

Thank you very much.

I might wait a bit. I think I mentioned earlier I've been getting horrible accuracy especially with cast bullets and am thinking the gun might go back to Winchester.

A fella posted a link on a thead I started about trying to find an accurate load for cast bullets.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,52729.0.html

I'm starting to think I have a similar issue, as mine gives larger groups than what this guy was getting.

That's no good. Best of luck figuring it all out. In the meantime check out this clip. Sorry, I just recently watched this and thought of it when you mentioned rifle accuracy  Cool

http://youtu.be/r4SF22qFxbE
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2015, 07:28:49 pm »


That was great!

Yeah I talked to Winchester today and they sent a shipping label and offered to have a look.

I may try a couple more loads before sending it in. I've had a bore scope down it (as far as it will reach) and did see 3 pits in a row, but I've seen worse bores shoot moa.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to be on the LA police marksmanship demo team if someone were shooting this rifle.

http://youtu.be/jDP8BRSEjrA
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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2015, 11:05:43 pm »

Here's the gun




I went out shooting yesterday with friend (Dead eye Lefty) who was kind enough to give me an introduction and some coaching for cowboy action shooting and fast draw.  He had some 125 grain Tightgroup loads, and I fired a string in my rifle.  They seemed to shoot pretty good.  My 158 RNFP Trailboss loads in his 66 shot poorly...

Low and behold when I got home some 125 truncated cone Rimrock bullets I had ordered showed up.  I decided to load a few with the same Trail Boss load in the same brass (357 Remington) as a comparison.

Massively more accurate than the flat point round nose.  I was really shocked.  The one flier on the right target I believe was me.  Just shooting off a field rest.



Anyhoo, I don't think I'll be needing to return the rifle to Winchester, and I went ahead and ordered the sight, screws, blank, and a spring for my Stoeger coach gun.  It will be interesting to fire the rifle from a proper bench with that load.  I guess my gun just doesn't like 158 RNFP or 158 SWC.  At all.

Thanks again for all the great info and replies.
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2015, 02:47:38 pm »

Nice rifle!! Great to hear you won't be sending it back to Winchester. The wood is very nice. I will keep 125 grain in mind. I haven't bought any ammo for mine yet. I have a gun show to attend tomorrow in Springfield, MO. I may check out some ammo there.
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2015, 03:07:22 pm »

Must be bad tooling or something. Miroku generally builds top notch guns.
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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2015, 04:39:19 pm »

Yeah it's a really nicely made gun, and I really couldn't understand why I couldn't find anything that would shoot accurately out of it.

I'd tried a range of Trail Boss and those 158rnfp, Universal, 2400, and Blue Dot. 357 and 38 brass. Oregon trail and Greimer 158 swc loads with Bullseye. Most wouldn't hold 4" at 25 yards.

I've had guns that shot a particular weight bulliet, or even a particular bullet with better accuracy, but never such an extreme example.

I guess I'll be ordering a few thousand of those 125 tc bullets. Can't find more trail boss so I may see how they shoot with universal clays.
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