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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Gun Reviews (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Arcey)  |  Topic: 1873 Winchester in .44-40? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 1873 Winchester in .44-40?  (Read 35407 times)
Nimble Fingers
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« on: December 05, 2013, 10:39:27 pm »


Been a while since I have been on and if I haven't seen an article please forgive.  I was under the impression that we were going to see a .44-40 version from Winchester /Miroki (sp?) around this time.  Has anyone heard if it is coming yet or is it a figment of my fervent imagination?

Thanks.

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hatman
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 01:52:01 am »

Yes, they're out there.
I've seen several on gun broker.
I have the 1873 Miroku and 2 Browning/Miroku 86's.  Awesome quality and beautiful.
The 92 Miroku 44-40 is on my short-list of 'wanna gits'.
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JohnsonBarr
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 01:34:59 pm »

The November 2013 issue of the American Rifleman reviewed the new 2013 Miroku made Winchester 1873. The article appears on page 64 and indicates that for now the short rifle (20" round barrel with crescent butt plate) will only be available in .357/.38 Special chambering. Possibly the earlier production in 2009 produced .44-40 rifles.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 07:34:46 pm »

Been a while since I have been on and if I haven't seen an article please forgive.  I was under the impression that we were going to see a .44-40 version from Winchester /Miroki (sp?) around this time.  Has anyone heard if it is coming yet or is it a figment of my fervent imagination?

Thanks.

Nimble Fingers
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Oops.  My apologies.  JohnsonBarr is correct and I was WRONG.
I was thinking of the 92.
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Nimble Fingers
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 11:11:55 pm »

Yes I have the John Wayne Commemorative in .44-40 that I had customized to also shoot .344 special.  But I was referring to the 1873 that is currently out in .357/.38, with the rumor that just about now they were going to have a run in .44-40.  I am also wanting an 1886 but if the3 1873 came out then I would sell my Cimmarron 1873 in .44 special and buy that one instead, rather have the Winchester name on the barrel.  If anyone has news let us know?  Thanks again.
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 08:34:46 pm »

Yes I have the John Wayne Commemorative in .44-40 that I had customized to also shoot .344 special.  But I was referring to the 1873 that is currently out in .357/.38, with the rumor that just about now they were going to have a run in .44-40.  I am also wanting an 1886 but if the3 1873 came out then I would sell my Cimmarron 1873 in .44 special and buy that one instead, rather have the Winchester name on the barrel.  If anyone has news let us know?  Thanks again.

Are you into re enactment or something that the name on the barrel matters? If so I would think more importantly would be the fact that those new Miroku made 73's are not an accurate replica in that the lever throw is short stroked.

Your going to need to invest in a gun nearly 100 years old for that name Winchester on the gun to really mean anything, none are exact but Cimarron offers a more accurate replica of those.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 07:34:16 am »

Nimble Fingers,

Yes, Winchester plans to sell the 1873 in 44-40.  According to their representative at the NRA convention last May, they were to be out last October.  However, I've seen a report that they were delayed until early 2014.

The nice thing is that they've already been tuned and have a modest short stroke (lever opening is just short of 90 degrees), and they sell for slightly less than a stock Uberti.  Thus, you don't have to spend additional money to have it tuned.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 05:39:24 pm »

Howdy
I am looking forward to handling the new 73 . Would love to have one with checkered stocks and a pistol grip 24 inch half octagon barrel . This could be the Ultimate Vintage Hunting Rifle .  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Rye Miles
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 08:27:39 pm »

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=027C&mid=534200
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2014, 04:55:11 pm »

Yes it is a 10 month old dead thread but...

I just got my Miroku Winchester 73 in 44-40 20 inch round barrel short rifle, actually a factory refurb, looks like a brand new shiny rifle to me.  Not sure what they fixed and the price  was under a grand (not very much under).

Levers easily.  I will need to practice to make sure I fully close the lever and thus disengage the lever safety/trigger block.

Brass and dies in bound from TOTW, .428 bullets enroute from Cowboy Bullets,  The groove diameter if spec should be .4285 the soft desperado bullets should bump up to seal bore with no problem.

Wood to metal fit pretty nice with the wood being slightly proud.

My first 73 win, the bolt seems pretty wimpy compared to 92s etc.  The barrel is pretty heavy at the muzzle seems to be almost twice as much metal around the hole than is on my round barreled rossi 92 carbine.

The lever safety / Trigger block will take some getting used to.



* 1873win44-40.jpg (5.85 KB, 220x123 - viewed 383 times.)
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Cannon Jockey
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 12:39:35 am »

Hi all,  this is only my second post, but I have two of the Miroku made 1873's.  I got one of the short rifles in .357 mag early in the year, but in December I snagged one of the 24 inch octagon barreled models in 44-40.    They were announced as a Shot Show
special back in January.    The information posted on the Winchester site said they were only going produce 250 each of this model in 44-40 and .357 mag.  

I had been watching Gunbroker.com all year, but finally gave up.  Then I happened to log on back in December and saw several for sale.   Anyway, I bid on one and got it below MSRP.  It arrived at my FFL on Christmas Eve.

Here's a shot of it.   Since these rifles come with the tang drilled and tapped, I was able to mount a Marble's sight right away.


Here's a shot of the rifles along with a few Winchester marked collectables.  


I wasn't crazy about the wood on the short rifle.
The butt stock has little tiger strip to it, but it doesn't match the forearm which is not a great piece of wood.

However, the wood on the sporting rifle is absolutely gorgeous.  It dark with lots of figure and matched up perfectly

Cheers

P.S.   I haven fired the new rifle yet, but I will work up a more in depth review when I get the time.
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2015, 02:55:02 pm »

They also have them in RB 20", 44/40. wM1
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2015, 04:57:30 pm »

They also have them in RB 20", 44/40. wM1

Correct, I should have mentioned that the short rifles (both the blued frame and the case color frame) were produced in 3 calibers---.357 mag, 44-40, and 45 Colt..     Miroku produces all of these in limited production runs during the year ranging from a low of 250 to a high of several thousand.   Consequently, there is rarely a selection of all three caliber across all the models available at any one time.  This year, I have seen more of the .357 mag listed for sale than any other caliber, which would seem to indicate that they ran more of this caliber than the others.

The serial numbers for all of these runs are not sequential regardless of configuration like they were back in the days of the original Winchester factory,  but start fresh with number 00001 for each run.   They manage this by including a two letter suffix plus 3 more alphanumeric characters to code the model.   These last 5 characters change with each run.

Twenty or forty years down the road it will be hard to date a Miroku unless they release a chart with all the alphanumeric codes.
Presently one can call the service desk at Winchester/Browning in Utah and they will give on a production date for any Miroku serial number.

Cheers

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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2015, 08:18:53 pm »

Barleycorn Outfitters usually has them in stock. wM1
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2015, 08:37:58 pm »

Hello CJ. Your 1873 Model rifles are very nice looking . Thanks for taking the time to photograph them . Look forward to a shooting report. ,,,,,DT
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 02:26:01 pm »

Cannon are they just making 250 of just the 3 different calibers in case colored recirvers 24"? I want to get a 24" octagon grade II/III .357 case colored Miroku. Will that be hard to find?
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 07:29:01 pm »

Cannon are they just making 250 of just the 3 different calibers in case colored recirvers 24"? I want to get a 24" octagon grade II/III .357 case colored Miroku. Will that be hard to find?

According to the Winchester website they were only to produce 250 each of two calibers:   .357 mag and 44-40 in the 24 inch octagon barrel model.   This was announced as a Shot Show special at the 2014 Shot Show.    These are special runs
offered only to those dealers who attend the industry show each January.   This years show starts next week.

I had heard that the entire run got reserved by the various attending dealers before the 3 day show was up.  Miroku must have waited until they had run all of their catalog models before they tooled up for this run since the sporting rifles just started showing up in November.

Once again, since these are not catalog models for 2014, they have a finite supply and when they are gone they are gone.   However, if they feel the market is still there Winchester could have Miroku run them again or even add them to the 2015 catalog.   There is no guarantee.

Before the holidays, there were at least 8 or 10 for sale almost continuously on Gunbroker.com--mostly .357 mag. and maybe one or two in 44-40.  I just looked and there are only 5 listed--all .357 mag.     I don't know why the 44-40's seem to be in short supply--maybe a bigger demand by the collector types who want a historical chambering.

The bottom line to your question is yes--there are still .357 mags available, but If they in fact only ran 250 of these for the entire world market as their web site states, they won't last forever.

MSRP for the octagon barrel model is a whopping $1740.  Of course street prices are lower.  I'm seeing $1550 as a reserve with
$1650 as a buy it now price.    The prices were lower before the holidays.  I snagged my 44-40 for $1500 even with $30 shipping.

There are plenty of the short rifles listed---both blued and color case---mostly .357mag also.   Some of those are priced pretty close to a comparable Uberti.    MSRP for the all blued model was $1300 and the color case short rifle was $1580, but nobody is asking that kind of money now.

Lastly, be advised that if you are a purist, the Miroku sporting rifle is a less accurate copy of an original than a Uberti is--with the one exception of the wood.    My new 24 inch octagon barreled Miroku is a full 1/2 pound lighter than either a comparable original or a Uberti.    They managed this weight reduction two ways.   One is with internal changes and thus mostly invisible.    By making minor geometric changes to internal components such as rounding off the square corners of the toggle links they were able to cut weight without reducing strength or functionality.  

However, they made another change that I spotted the moment I removed the rifle from the box.  It's the octagon barrel.   it's dimensions are less than either a Uberti or an original.  Not in length, but in diameter.   Starting at the receiver, the Miroku is 5% narrower between the flats tapering to 10% narrower at the muzzle.    Both the Uberti and an original with a 24 inch octagon barrel are almost exactly .75 or 3/4 ths. of an inch between the flats at the muzzle while the Miroku is only .67 or 11/16ths of an inch.

Many would not notice this unless you hold the Miroku up next to the Uberti, but as I said, I spotted it immediately.

In the shot below, you can spot the more tapered barrel on the Miroku by the larger space between the barrel and the magazine tube.

Obviously the more pronounced taper requires a longer magazine hanger to keep it aligned with the bore---plus a slightly taller front site.    In case you are wondering why it's hard to see the front sight on grandpa's rifle--at some point either by choice or necessity, he replaced the original blade with a hand carved piece of hog tusk ivory.   It's a bit worn down now, but with the rear sight on the lowest notch of the elevator I can still hit what I aim at with it.  I'll probably never change it out because it's another bit of family history.  

I have no idea how important this barrel taper thing will be to people.  I can appreciate them reducing the overall weight of the gun, but only if they made it less obvious--just keeping it at 5% for the entire length would have been better since there is already a slight taper to an original, but tapering it to 10% at the muzzle makes it obvious.

For that much money, I want a more accurate copy--at least externally.  I have finally decided that I was being too OCD about it
and just to let it go.   Besides, the only way one could correct it would be to send it off to some place like Turnbull and pay a small fortune to have it re-barreled.       Still, I thought it worth mentioning.  

Cheers
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stuck_in_73
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 10:04:38 pm »

Cool Cannon. Thanks so much for added info. Never heard that mentioned before about the Miroku rifles. After this post I am clicking the "buy it now" button on gun broker. I'll post pics after I buy it. I'm going with the .357/38. I already have a Uberti .45 colt 20" but want something with Winchester on the barrel.  Grin It would be my plinking gun. I'll add a Marbles sight immediately as the tang is tapped. I'm pretty excited. Im a lever action addict. Love them. My Marlin 336ss is my deer gun and my Uberti and this Winchester I'm buying will be my historic guns. To take out of the case to look at or take out and shoot. Plus I have a 3 year old son that when he hits his teens I'd like to pass one of these gems into his hands.

Thanks again!

Jeff
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 10:53:41 pm »

Cannon Jockey, that is the first I've heard of the smaller dimensions and tapering of the octagon barrel.  Yes, it is fairly obvious when looking at the angle you showed.  As to whether that will matter to potential buyers...if they don't mind the obvious differences in markings on the barrel and tang from the originals and Ubertis, then they probably won't mind the barrel taper!

As to whether those particular models are ended after the runs of 250, regardless of what they said before, it's hard to imagine them turning down sales if the first models sold well.  But at any rate, with Shot Show coming up next week, I'm sure folks will be questioning them about "all things '73"  Smiley and we'll be getting updates on what's coming.  Two years ago, when they first showed their new '73, I was able to go by their booth and take a look.  But last year I never had a chance to leave our booth and go over there.  This year, who knows?
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 11:57:16 pm »

Here is my new Winchester 1873 rifle in 357/38. I'm excited to get it in and add to the gun case next to my Uberti 1873. I like the tiger striped wood it has going. Out of all the new Winchesters on GB I thought this rifle had the best looking grade II/III wood.


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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
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~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 03:56:08 am »

Very nice.  Looks like you did well!

Cheers
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 11:51:41 am »

Very nice.  Looks like you did well!

Cheers

Thanks. I'm hoping I'll be pleased. Maybe it'll be in next week. I'll post more picks of it once I get it. Thanks everyone for all the info! Smiley
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"I HAVE A VERY STRICT GUN CONTROL POLICY: IF THERE'S A GUN AROUND, I WANT TO BE IN CONTROL OF IT."
-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 02:42:55 pm »

Since this is the review section, here is another thing that I thought I would share about the Miroku 1873's and this would pertain to any of them.

Miroku added an additional safety system that is not on either a Uberti or an original.   However, it is unobtrusive and basically self-working.    The long metal bolt that cocks the hammer when one works the lever is now called the firing pin extension.  On an original there is no such part because it and the firing pin were a single piece of machined metal that threads through the breechblock.

Possibly for production efficiencies, Uberti chose to make this into two separate pieces, which simply mate inside the breechblock.  The rear section (the part that you see) is now called the firing pin extension.    Miroku followed this same method, but redesigned the extension to also house a hammer block safety.  Basically what they have done is to take a single part from the original Winchester and turned it into an assembly comprised of 10 parts---now that's progress Roll Eyes


Below a shot of the Miroku extension.  It is now hollow with an internal pin under pressure from a small coil spring.  The black button at the very rear tip of the extension is the contact end of that internal pin.  The other end of the internal coil spring is attached to a cam lever, the top of which you will see protruding from a machined slot running length-wise on the extension.   All this is held in place with two punch pins.

Peeking out from under the rear of the dust cover, is the base of a lug which the cam lever interacts with inside the receiver.


The whole purpose of this affair is to prevent an accidental discharge if the hammer is bumped while being in the down position
with a round in the chamber.     The rifles still have the normal half cock position which has sufficed as a safety system for at least 140 years, but of course in today's litigious society, companies now have to protect people from their own negligence.    

Thank goodness, they didn't go the route that they did with their 1886, 1892, 1894, and 1895, which replaced the half cock with a rebounding hammer and an upper tang safety switch.   It's a shame that companies now seem compelled to fix things that weren't broken in the first place.

As I mentioned, the system on the new 73's is not as obtrusive, but I have already encountered a problem with it in my short rifle.   It was probably just a freak accident, but I can see it happening to others if they are not aware of the possibility.  

After a range trip this past summer with the short rifle, I had just finished cleaning the bore, and was giving the entire rifle a final wipe down.   The lever was down, so the extension was fully extended to the rear.   That's when my cleaning rag caught the little tab protruding from the slot on the extension and levered it up to a vertical position.  This dislodged the internal coil spring from its track and left the cam lever sticking up at an angle.   I could see the little spring inside doubled up, but there was no way to reposition it through the narrow slot.    Consequently, I could not close the action.

A smarter and more sensible person would have probably sent the rifle to the Winchester service center, but having disassembled and done minor gunsmithing on my 73's numerous times over the years, I decided to see if I could correct the issue on my own.

The extension had to be removed and mounted in a vice to drive out the rear retaining pin with a punch.  Then using an illuminated magnifier and tweezers, the coil spring was remounted inside the shaft and the whole thing reassembled.     It took the better part of an evening to figure out and correct.  It has functioned normally since then, and of course I have since taken care to avoid duplicating what caused the issue in the first place.

Fortunately, over the week end, I found a solution to prevent this from ever happening again.   Pioneer Gunworks, who makes short stroke kits for Uberti's and the new Miroku's, also makes a replacement drop in firing pin extension that is a simple solid piece of metal.  This effectively eliminates the new safety block system and restores the gun to a more historically authentic configuration.  

I placed an order this week for two--one for each of my rifles at $40 a pop.

Cheers

 


 

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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 09:16:13 pm »

Thanks for that info. I may look into that when my Miroku shows up.
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-Clint Eastwood

~Winchester/Miroku 1873 sporting .357/38
~Winchester SXP Waterfowl 12g
~Uberti 1873 .45 long colt
~Ruger LC9 9mm
~Ruger GP100 .357
~Desert Eagle 1911.45acp
~Marlin 336SS .30-30
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 07:17:14 am »

"Basically what they have done is to take a single part from the original Winchester and turned it into an assembly comprised of 10 parts---now that's progress."

And that's why my newest Winchester '73 was made in 1882, and my newest clone was made in 1995. They just can't help but tinker with perfection. Grin
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