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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  1911 & Wild Bunch Shooting (Moderators: Jefro, August)  |  Topic: 45 ACP Load 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 45 ACP Load  (Read 17351 times)
paledun
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« on: September 28, 2013, 11:05:29 pm »


I am attempting to develop and WB load using a 200 grain RNFP bullet.  Two attempts to load from the magazine failed with both cartridges failing to properly chamber.  Cartridges were 1.25 inches in overall length and the taper crimp was behind the bullet crimp ring by approximately 1/16th of an inch.  The taper crimp did not allow either bullet to be forced back into the case so I believe the crimp was sufficient.  Both bullets  had been slightly forced to the side (off center line of the bullet) by the force of the slide coming forward to battery.  I believe the 1.25 cartridge length may be too long for a 200 grain bullet.  Anyone shooting a 200 RNFP and crimping on or very near the crimping ring?  If so, what is your overall cartridge length?  Your information would be appreciated.  Paledun
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Jefro
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 09:31:03 am »

Howdy paledun, the 200gr RNFP is what most of us use around here. Depending on what 200gr yer using your OAL is too long. Try 1.167 +/- , that should completely cover the crimp ring. The OG on the 200gr RNFP starts higher on the bullet than the 230gr. Another way to check is remove the barrel. now drop the round in the the barrel. it should pop out with flip of the fingernail. Chip McCorrmick mags and the Lee factory taper crimp are also a big plus for feeding issues. Good Luck Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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Garand
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 11:57:20 am »

I'm running a 1914 Colt Commercial Model. For 20 years with my Series '70 I had no problem with 1.245", with the 1914 gun I had to load at 1.255 to get proper functioning. Each gun is different, keep adjusting the OAL until your happy.
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 02:55:38 pm »

That 1914 Colt's receiver was made of a softer steel than later guns.

Use good springs and light loads, unless you want to look at ovalled-out holes in the frame.

Scouts Out!
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August
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 02:11:38 pm »

Among the things I wish I knew before opening my big trap are: What gun are we talking about?  What magazine are we talking about?  What brand of bullet are we talking about?  Do your comments mean the rounds are failing to enter the chamber, or that they are failing to go to battery?  And, did you make a dummy round before starting loading to check in your actual barrel?

Anywho, my experience over the past couple of years has suggested that O.A.L. is not a useful piece of datum when it comes to specific bullets in specific barrels in auto-loading pistols.  Rather, each bullet design has a different profile for the front part -- the part outside the case.  Add to this the matter that barrels are cut with different throats, or often with no freebore whatsoever.  Springfields, for example, are known to have chambers that put the bullet up against the lands when the ogive of the bullet begins right at the case mouth.  So, you really have to play around with dummy rounds in your actual pistol for a while before committing to proceeding with the loading process.

I use the actual barrel of the gun as a chamber gauge to check bullet seating and other dimensions before putting powder in cases and making working rounds.  You really cannot bypass this step with autoloaders in my experience.  It's a long trip back from the range when you don't get to put any lead downrange.  I have learned this lesson the hard way -- more than once, sadly.

In general terms, 45 acp bullets are designed with a shank, a small step, and then the beginning of the ogive.  They tend to do this so that their product will work in a barrel with no throat.  This step must be AT OR BELOW the mouth of the case for rounds to go fully to battery.  The mistake I made when starting with the a.c.p. was that I didn't seat the bullets deep enough to allow the ogive to clear the lands when the round was chambered.  This happened to me because I didn't realize that small step in the bullet was present.  It isn't obvious at first because it is only a few thousandths of an inch.  We see this problem at every WBAS match with someone who made an assumption about O.A.L. rather than actually testing a given set-up in their barrel before making their ammo.  It is very frustrating for the shooter and everyone else at the line responsible for safety.

So, even though a given O.A.L. might fit in the magazine, it won't necessarily run in the gun.

In the absence of answers to my initial questions, I'll go even further out on a limb and suggest the following:

1. Clean your feed ramp and polish it if you haven't already done so.

2. Use only good magazines.  The majority of people I shoot with use Tripp magazines.  We pay the money for them because they're worth it.

3. Be absolutely certain that the ogive is seated at, or even slightly shy of the case mouth.  None of the "shelf" of the shank can be exposed.  In other words, the curve of the front of the bullet must start IMMEDIATELY at the the case mouth and taper to the point from there.  (this seating may require some adjustment to your powder charge, but probably not).

4. You must make a series of dummy rounds to dial things in before proceeding with loading.

5. Remove your barrel from your pistol and use it as a chamber gauge to check dimensions.  If the round won't go to battery here, it won't work consistently in a match.

6. Once things are dialed in, a chamber gauge (Dillon Precision) is necessary for absolute quality control.  I consistently encounter brass that is swollen or has a burr at the back end from previous use.  A sizing die will not always fix problems at the back of the case.  I, personally, use a Lee Bulge Buster on all the brass I intend to use in a match before loading it.  At any rate, I've learned I cannot assume consistent results, so a chamber gauge is invaluable.

I hope this helps.  Please report back with some more information and your progress.

All the best,

AW
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Garand
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2014, 01:14:53 pm »

That 1914 Colt's receiver was made of a softer steel than later guns.

Use good springs and light loads, unless you want to look at ovalled-out holes in the frame.

Scouts Out!

Actually my 1914 has been fitted with a shok-buff and has only put a maximum of 500 rds a year downrange during the last 3 years.I'm starting this years season with my Series '70, one of my 1914's will be my backup pistol. I have 1x1913 Colt and 5x 1914 Colts, I will shoot at least 1 match with my 1914 as I want to say I've competed with a 100 year old Colt.

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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2014, 03:41:21 pm »

I've had feeding problems with my 1911's using 200/RNFP's. I've gone back to 200 gr SWC's which feed reliably in all.

In WB I use 230 LRN just 'cause it seems the right thing to do. I'd shoot FMJ is the rules allowed it.
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2014, 09:09:55 am »

I run 200gr lead RNFP at 1.200" length.  They run great in my Colt, Rem and Rock.
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2014, 11:38:01 am »

I'll try it.

I seated them with the same die setting as I do 230 RN. The only difference between the bullets being the ogive ( the absence of the RN on the FP's), it doesn't seem logical that they wouldn't feed reliably..
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 07:13:30 pm »

The crimping groove on my 200 gr RNFP's gives me an OAL of 1.200".

These did not feed well from my R1's or even my Gold Cup. Go figure ....
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 10:55:56 am »

The crimping groove on my 200 gr RNFP's gives me an OAL of 1.200".

These did not feed well from my R1's or even my Gold Cup. Go figure ....

Typically, .45 acp bullet do not have a crimp groove since none is necessary in this cartridge.  Sounds like you're trying to make some Long Colt's bullets run in the 1911 (?).
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 11:37:06 am »

Yup, thought Id be able to make it work in both guns.
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Jefro
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 01:08:40 pm »

The crimping groove on my 200 gr RNFP's gives me an OAL of 1.200".

These did not feed well from my R1's or even my Gold Cup. Go figure ....
Howdy PJ, ferget about the crimp groove, the OG on a 200gr RNFP starts higher on the bullet than a 230gr round ball. There are several of us that use the 200gr RNFP without any trouble in RI and Colts. OAL 1.167+/- See my earlier post, Good Luck Smiley

Howdy paledun, the 200gr RNFP is what most of us use around here. Depending on what 200gr yer using your OAL is too long. Try 1.167 +/- , that may completely cover the crimp ring. The OG on the 200gr RNFP starts higher on the bullet than the 230gr. Another way to check is remove the barrel. now drop the round in the the barrel. it should pop out with flip of the fingernail. Chip McCorrmick mags and the Lee factory taper crimp are also a big plus for feeding issues. Good Luck Smiley

Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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Bull Skinner
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 03:03:42 pm »

I load a 200 grain LRNFP from Missouri Bullet Co. in my RIA GI45. OAL is 1.195. Crimp groove is inside the case completely. This is the same bullet I use in 45 Colt. Seat your bullets deeper so no crimp groove shows.
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 07:26:06 pm »

I'll try it. Thanks!
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 09:49:42 pm »

I loaded up a batch seating the 200 gr RNFP with the crimping groove just inside the case mouth. That created an OAL length of 1.179 - 1.180" with that particular bullet design.

At our indoor IPSC practice today, they performed perfectly. The taper crimp held the bullets just fine. The only malfunctions that occurred were the .40's using 'green' plated bullets ..... ;>)

Thanks for the suggestion!
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 11:21:13 pm »

You're welcome. Grin
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1961MJS
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2014, 08:21:59 pm »

I've had feeding problems with my 1911's using 200/RNFP's. I've gone back to 200 gr SWC's which feed reliably in all.

In WB I use 230 LRN just 'cause it seems the right thing to do. I'd shoot FMJ is the rules allowed it.

Wait, we CAN'T shoot FMJ in a 1911?  Dammit, my hardball gun is the ONLY one I have that's remotely period correct. 

 Embarrassed

Later
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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 11:15:49 am »

I've often wondered about that ....

IPSC and IDPA both shoot FMJ on paper and steel targets. The difference is both require a load with some hitting power, enforced by the rules.
The lower power factor in 'Wild Bunch' would mean a lot of FMJ bullets might be bouncing around instead of fragmenting on steel.

The powers that be might also be taking into consideration  the cost of FMJ bullets vs lead. As the 'green' bullet catches on, this may be subject to change.

As for period correctness - what's period correct about a lot of the CAS single action revolvers we shoot? I don't own a GI 1911 or 1911A1. Closest I have is a Remington R1 with high viz sights (compared to the original), lowered/dimpled ejection port, bevelled mag well and long tang.

I shoot WB wearing wool puttees to my knees and 'period correct' pants, shirt and hat for a 'Soldier of Fortune' of the era, shooting a 230 RN 'major' load.
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2014, 06:25:46 pm »

I don't understand why everyone is trying to use such heavy bullets.  I'm using a 185 Gr. round nose lead bullet that works every bit as slick as the 230 RNL with the same basic profile but a little less lead.  I've shot the 200 Gr. RNFP bullets and while they work most of the time they’re not really designed for use in a semi auto pistol. 

Yes, you do have to push the lighter bullet a little bit faster to make the SASS power factor but the decrease in felt recoil as that lighter bullet exits the muzzle is worth it.  We all know less recoil translates into shorter recovery times and faster follow-up shots.  My Springfield loves this loading and has NEVER had a jamb (knock on wood) with this combination.

Chey Cast has these bullets, listing them as a 185 Gr. SWC on their website.  Give them a try, you won't be sorry.

http://www.cheycast.com/
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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2014, 09:51:25 pm »

Some feel a 'period' gun ought to be shot with a 'period' load and bullet. Hence the interest in 1911's as opposed to 1911A1's.

I shot 180's in IPSC for years from my Gold Cup with 6" 'pin gun' barrel. The longer barrel plus the weight of the barrel made recoil negligible even with the higher 'major' power floor back then. I find the same load uncomfortable in my stock 1911's.
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2017, 08:02:08 pm »

I use the same 200 gr lead or coated rnfp in both my .45 acp and .45lc with no problems. My slide/ barrel of my 1911 is original Colt while the frame is an old Essex. The only issues I've had is with the assorted range brass I've accumulated and my AR .45s that I shoot that are very rough on the brass. To be able to use my reloads in any of my .45s, carbines, revolvers or 1911 pistols, I run them through a lee bulgebuster die that irons out the case of the reload and case rim so that they drop right in a check gauge. I also bought 10 chip McCormick mags to use for Wild Bunch shoots years ago and have had no mag related problems. The majority of 1911 feed issues are directly related to the magazine but the ammo can't have any issues either.
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