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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  1911 & Wild Bunch Shooting (Moderators: Jefro, August)  |  Topic: Mod 97 6th round 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Mod 97 6th round  (Read 10480 times)
Papa Irish
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« on: October 10, 2012, 10:56:53 am »


My Model 97 comes about 1/2" shy of loading the 6th round.  What can I do to get that 6th round in.  I have cut the spring down to 6 inches longer than the tube. Any other ideas.  Huh
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Papa Irish
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 11:16:07 am »

My Model 97 comes about 1/2" shy of loading the 6th round.  What can I do to get that 6th round in.  I have cut the spring down to 6 inches longer than the tube. Any other ideas.  Huh

Use 2 1/2 inch shells.  I cut plastic hulls to 2 3/8 inch, and roll crimp with a Lyman roll crimp head in a drill press.  It is very quick and easy.  Use a shorter version of your favorite plastic wad.  I use the AA 114, which is the field wad for 1 1/4 oz but only insert an ounce of shot with a thin over-shot card.
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 11:23:29 am »

Howdy Papa, Wild Bodie Tom makes a drop in 6 round spring and follower kit for the 97. wildbodietom@q.com. Several other CAS gunsmiths now carry spring kits, make sure you tell them if it's a solid frame or breakdown. Good Luck Smiley


Jefro Cheesy Relax-Enjoy
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 12:27:11 pm »

The Wild Bodie Tom six-shot conversion is your Huckleberry.  http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1413
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Red Cent
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 12:46:16 pm »

Budget time. Take the end of the spring and carefully bend the follower end of the spring into  funnel looking spring. You want the spring to coil flat inside the follower like a roll of rope on a whale boat. Flat. On both types of 97s, the mag tube end cap can be reduced some. Simply use a (preferred) band sander and take the metal off the bottom just shy of the crosspin hole.
The real trick is to take time on the spring.

Both of my solid frames will just barely take six now.

And the 2 1/2" ain't a bad idea either. They cost  a little but you usse one a stage.
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 01:12:38 pm »

And the 2 1/2" ain't a bad idea either. They cost  a little but you usse one a stage.

You might need more than one 2.5" shell.  You will have to try it out.  I agree that you can use 2 3/4" shells for stages with 5 shots or less
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 02:21:20 pm »



2 1/2 " shells will work just fine. I roll my own and I mean that quite literally.  I use paper shells and a roll crimper to make 2 1/2" shells. My 97 will just barely hold six 2 3/4" shells, but I still use the shorter sells. At the SASS ranges that I am shooting the 2 1/2"ers are plenty powerful enough.
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 07:46:14 pm »

I tried mine this past Saturday after getting it back from a smith and it does hold six BUT somewhere in the translation this gun has come back from to smiths with the same problem unresolved.  Whether four or six it does not want to feed from the magazine.  Even extreme gung-ho on the pump will fail to reliably feed one in.  A couple of pards have suggested that I look for a burr in the tube but I would think that if two professionals coundn't find the problem, who can?  Both returned it with the claim that it was working!
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 09:40:33 pm »

The Wild Bodie Tom six-shot conversion is your Huckleberry.  http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1413

I put this kit in my (original) 97.  It now holds six 2.75" shells and it feeds better. 

The Bodie kit is a winner.
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Papa Irish
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 06:58:25 am »

Thanks for all the info, and may you be in heaven 2 hours before the devil knows you are dead. Wink
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Papa Irish
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 07:16:22 am »

I tried mine this past Saturday after getting it back from a smith and it does hold six BUT somewhere in the translation this gun has come back from to smiths with the same problem unresolved.  Whether four or six it does not want to feed from the magazine.  Even extreme gung-ho on the pump will fail to reliably feed one in.  A couple of pards have suggested that I look for a burr in the tube but I would think that if two professionals coundn't find the problem, who can?  Both returned it with the claim that it was working!

I don't know what brand of 97 you have but some of the Chinese junkers have been known to have that problem.  Seems like it is just a lot of places that it is out of specifications.   Your mileage may vary.

Blackfoot
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Grapevine Jimmy
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 09:54:42 am »

I used the Red Cent modificarion on my ChinChester and it holds and feeds six. It's a tight fit but it works.

Grapevine Jimmy
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 10:57:27 am »

I tried mine this past Saturday after getting it back from a smith and it does hold six BUT somewhere in the translation this gun has come back from to smiths with the same problem unresolved.  Whether four or six it does not want to feed from the magazine.  Even extreme gung-ho on the pump will fail to reliably feed one in.  A couple of pards have suggested that I look for a burr in the tube but I would think that if two professionals coundn't find the problem, who can?  Both returned it with the claim that it was working!

Nope, not a burr.

The carrier activates the two shell stops as the action is opened, thus releasing a cartridge.  It is the width of the carrier that determines positive operation of the shell stops.

If you look at the action from the bottom when it's closed, you can see the two, reed-like shell stops holding a cartridge in place, inside the magazine.  As the action is opened, the carrier falls and wedges between to cartridge stops, opening them and releasing a fresh cartridge.

If the carrier is worn -- i.e. too narrow to do the job -- the cartridge stops will work intermittently.  The gun might have worked for the 'smith, who probably used different cartridges in testing it.  The design seems to benefit from quality shells.  Aluminum base shells are problematic since aluminum has the property of being "sticky."   Thus, a carrier that's on the verge of not opening the cartridge stops might fail in the case where aluminum base shells are used, but work fine with brass-based shells, since brass has the property of being self-lubricating.

It still needs to be fixed.  The fix is to weld some additional material to the front, side portions (i.e. both sides) of the carrier and contour it to run smoothly through the cartridge stops.  In other words, the carrier is worn out and needs to be rebuilt.  

Along this line, cramming six cartridges into a magazine that has not been otherwise modified can cause additional wear on the carrier at the cartridge stops because it now has to work harder to release the stops when they are under greater pressure from a full magazine.  So, fitting six in the magazine has to go beyond just (barely) getting them in there.  There should still be some margin of space in the column of shells to insure the pressure on the cartridge retainers is not excessive.

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Red Cent
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 02:52:56 pm »

New shell stops. Doesn't take a lot to get the shell stops out of "sync" with the carrier/elevator. On worn shell stops, you can change the angle to a little more abrupt angle to hold the shells and shorten the flat spot which stop the shell.
Slowhand,  as stated, your shell stops are not openied enough by the carrier. Instead of welding the carrier, you can file the shell top to let go "sooner". Load a round in the mag and see where the rim of the round is setting on both stops. One is set to let go before the other. If the gunsmith has made a shelfs for the round to stop, minimize the shelfs. Doesn't take much.

The problem with this fix,it is a PITA because you have to do trial and error. That means you cannot remove the shell stops unless you field strip the shotgun.

Come January 1, the problem will go away Grin
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 07:44:54 am »

My problem is triple fold, to much leather work to finish between now and early November, I am signed up to shoot my first WB match at the regional side match Thursday and my only other gun is the new and untested Mod 12 that is no good until Jan 1.  I still want to get a second Mod 12 with a longer barl and old style wood without a ribbed barl for extra cart weight!  Just received an email from the sponsors requesting side match help so may cancel out on the WB match and work that morning.  The '97 can play safe queen until such time as I decide further.  Anybody coming to Charleston for the Regional?   
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 07:40:54 pm »

A new post elsewhere states that the '97/China project is not dead, but rather, is alive and well.  Supposedly there is a new update by CC stating that a new and improved '97 will be out by the spring of 2013.  HMMMM, wonder if the Wild Bunch move to embrace the Mod 12 might have changed some business plans somewhere? 

The gun I have is a Norinco # 0202xxx and I have been fiddling with it a bit and something has happened???  Dawnt ask me dangit, but it is now working smooth again with up to five shells??  Side by side this evening I would have seleted the '97 over my recently aquired Mod 12.  It was smoother, lighter and just handier feeling.  Given, the Mod 12 needs and will eventually get some tune-up/slicking work.  I will also be watching for a second of each model, as funds permit.

PS: As I understand it, I have the worst of the Chinese imports in the low number Norinco imports?     
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wildman1
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 04:56:29 am »

I just picked one up used. Looks like new. Functions great, holds six with ease.  Tongue WM
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 07:56:14 am »

not addressing the problem but the cause. why did the board got to 6 rds. in shotgun that was not really made for 6.  1911s hold 7rds but regulated to 5 for saftey and stage design.  so why cause so much trouble by wanting 6 shells in shotgun?  just idle thoughts from an idle fellow.
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 08:07:23 am »

I do not know the answers but do know that the five rounds in the 1911 has been somewhat a hot topic with some strong feelings.  I am sure that the same would be true of the six round shot shell counts. This will become more and more moot as the Mod 12 gets more common.  Anyone know which, if either, of the two versions of that six shot mod will work in the Chinese guns and is it a simple parts swap out?
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G W Wade
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 08:15:47 am »

chinchesters are just solid frames so order kit that applys
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 11:18:40 am »

Thanks guys, I ordered the load 6 kit this mourning.  Is this a pretty simple operation to install?
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wildman1
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 01:54:45 pm »

I just removed the tube from inside the spring in mine and then it would take 5, so I cut a little off of the spring (twice) and now it takes 6 easily. Still functions fine, it is an original manufactured in 1911. My other one is an IAC and takes six with no mods. Those are 2 3/4" shells.  Tongue WM
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 07:37:46 pm »

I am guessing that I will need to attack this project from the muzzle end of the tub?  Remove the two clamp forming prts and then the screw that traverses the actual tube??  Looks like this will open it up for the new spring and carrier.
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Pay Dirt Norvelle
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2012, 10:42:43 pm »

My six shot kit (takedown) came in the mail yesterday.  I heven't gotten around to installing it yet.
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2012, 05:09:34 pm »

not addressing the problem but the cause. why did the board got to 6 rds. in shotgun that was not really made for 6.  1911s hold 7rds but regulated to 5 for saftey and stage design.  so why cause so much trouble by wanting 6 shells in shotgun?  just idle thoughts from an idle fellow.

Exactly! Why in the wide world of sports did we ever start the game of WBAS requiring 6 in the mag. JMB designed it to hold 5 in the mag not 6 and 5 is what we should be loading NOT 6. It's just crazy. Stagewriters can fix this by writing 5 into the stage instructions. I have cratered 2 Winchester clones trying to overload the mag. A trench gun that was spanky new and supposedly tuned and slicked by famous cowboy gunsmiths and a 93/97 that had been trouble free. The trench gun never fired again and was declared a parts gun only by a premier 97 cowboy smith. The 93/97 is still in the shop.

I have been using the 5 featherlite and one B&P 2.5 inch solution and it works well. Those short black B&P shells take down kd steel as well as the featherlites.
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