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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  GENERAL TOPICS  |  The Shootin' Range (Moderator: Marshal Halloway)  |  Topic: For the hunters: Need advice on an ethics (Non-Cas) question 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: For the hunters: Need advice on an ethics (Non-Cas) question  (Read 6413 times)
hhughh
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« on: September 22, 2012, 02:13:11 am »


Pards,
   Iím a little conflicted here, and need some help.  Iíve posted some on the boards, and have also spent time snooping, reading, and learning, and I have lots of respect for the knowledge and wisdom (not always the same thing) displayed here.  Iím not looking to start a flame-throwing exercise, I just would like to hear from some people on which side of the fence you come down on and why.  Again--donít be attacking someone else or their stance, just please present your side and be supportive of your opinion.

Itís about shooting a buffalo (I know, itís bison, butÖ.it wasnít Bison Bill Cody).  First, please notice that I did not refer to it as hunting a buffalo.  Anywhere I could go would be some game-ranch type operation, and itís not hunting in the way I pursue deer and turkey.  I have a young son who thinks it would be a grand lark to go somewhere and shoot a buffalo--heís still young enough that he understands Dad would be doing the shooting.  Personally, I wouldnít mind the meat at all, and it does seem to me to be something of an experience to pull the trigger on a critter like that.  But Iíve insisted to him that we will never refer to it as hunting.

Hereís my issue, being somewhat aware of our history.  When the big herds were being wiped out--I know, thereís speculation now that it was also disease, etc., and this is NOT a discussion about that--the hunters had stands where they could literally sit in place, fire, and do great damage to a herd.  Even to these guys, this must have stood in stark contrast to their pursuits ďback EastĒ of deer and other game.  What Iím asking, is where do I place my hunting ethics in the context of a once-in-a-lifetime experience for my son and I when it comes to shooting an animal that can not really be considered ďchasedĒ?

I look forward to any and all input, and please remember to keep it civil toward each other.

Thanks,
Hugh
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St. George
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 10:46:48 am »

It's your call, but it's like going to a zoo - picking out a likely target, and firing away - albeit from a greater distance.

By you not referring to it as 'hunting' - I think you may have answered your own question.

Scouts Out!
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Shotgun Franklin
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 04:40:44 pm »

Depends on the size of the enclosure and how you do the deed. If you hunt a buffalo on a 'fenced' in South Texas Ranch you might be on 1,000 acres. Now just shooting any buffalo that wanders by is different than finding a trophy and stalking it until you get a shot at just that one. There is also the difference with Sport Hunting and shooting for meat. I've done both. I don't look down on a guy who shoots over bait to feed his family. I also appreciate the guy who spends a whole season stalking that one deer he wants as a trophy.
It's up to you to decide how and why you're killing.
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dusty texian
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 01:52:54 am »

I think you hit the nail on the head Shotgun Franklin.
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Mattthehunter
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 06:49:08 pm »

Interesting post and equally interesting replies.

How about making it closr to a proper hunt in the sense that you crawl your way towards the herd, pick one out and use your 50 cal muzzle loader (with iron sights) to take one down. I saw something like this on a show called 'the Wild within'. As recall this hunter did his hunt on a Reservation and his guide performed a traditional ceremony of thanks after the kill. It could be a good lesson for your kid. I'm sure it wasn't an inexpensive hunt

As previously pointed out, getting within 50 yards could be quite dangerous and therefore closer to 'fair chase'. I'm sure your guide will be packing a heavy hitter though.

Whatever the outcome, I'd be interested to know what you decide.
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Forty Rod
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 07:22:59 pm »

Depends on the size of the enclosure and how you do the deed. If you hunt a buffalo on a 'fenced' in South Texas Ranch you might be on 1,000 acres. Now just shooting any buffalo that wanders by is different than finding a trophy and stalking it until you get a shot at just that one. There is also the difference with Sport Hunting and shooting for meat. I've done both. I don't look down on a guy who shoots over bait to feed his family. I also appreciate the guy who spends a whole season stalking that one deer he wants as a trophy.
It's up to you to decide how and why you're killing.

I agree.  I personally wouldn't do it, but I can't fault the person who does.
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Mattthehunter
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2012, 04:26:51 pm »

There is an episode of a show called 'meat eater' (same guy that was in 'the wild within' ) that is about buffalo hunting in Mexico.
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pony express
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2012, 08:15:22 pm »

I remember reading once about a buffalo hunt in Kansas, they had a pretty large area of prarie, part of the package was, they stayed in period tents, or maybe sod houses, wore period clothes and used BP rifles. Located the herd from horse back, then stalk to within range. Kind of like "NCOWS goes buffalo hunting". Still not terribly difficult, say, compared to hunting elk in the mountains, or bighorn sheep or something like that. But still would be an experience to remember.
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Chev. William
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 09:28:49 am »

A 70 year old non-hunter here adding my two cents to the pile.
Going after a 'Buffalo', even one in a fenced area on a 'Game Ranch', provided you are still 'stalking' and get close enough so that if the animal takes exception to your presence you are in danger of major injury or death IS A HUNT.
Yes, you did not travel several hundreds of miles on foot or horseback to get near the herd, or a particular animal; but you made the 'exercise' more equal by the final stalking and hoped for kill and butchering for the meat, hide, trophy head, and perhaps the bones to teach your son how early inhabitants of this Great Land used 'everything but the grunt' in their continuing struggle to survive and provide for their family.
IF, on another hand, you drive up to the herd or the individual animal in a motorized vehicle, step out and shoot it from behind the vehicle, that is like a 'hide getter' and just a slaughter of a 'dumb beast' for the experience and is NOT A HUNT.  It may be slightly more ethical if you do butcher the animal for its meat and hide, etc. bu it is still a staged and choreographed act.
In my opinion, those who 'hunt' and if successful in killing in killing a Game Animal (as differentiated form a Vermin, Pest,Predator, or Varmint that is causing losses to domesticated herds or flocks or farm crops) and leaving the meat to rot are not ethical nor true 'hunters' but in fact are unethical Slaughterers of Natural Resources.
I do understand to some extent the 'hunting' experience people who do it look for, I just formed an opinion early in my life and have only 'Hunted' Vermin and Pests type of animals except for my time in Vietnam, but that was more 'equal' in nature as the object of the 'hunt' could shoot back and usually did.
I now buy my food from retail stores, so do not 'hunt' for it in the traditional sense, and by definition my  food comes from sustainable harvest of resources by a series of people who provide the raising and processing and delivery of the foods I purchase.

Just my opinion on this subject.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
 
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RobMancebo
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 05:51:06 pm »

Interesting post and equally interesting replies.

How about making it closr to a proper hunt in the sense that you crawl your way towards the herd, pick one out and use your 50 cal muzzle loader (with iron sights) to take one down. I saw something like this on a show called 'the Wild within'. As recall this hunter did his hunt on a Reservation and his guide performed a traditional ceremony of thanks after the kill. It could be a good lesson for your kid. I'm sure it wasn't an inexpensive hunt

 

That idea could turn a simple collecting of meat into a lifetime memory.  I have no problem with animals being just killed for meat.  Everyone who goes to a grocery store is supporting that industry.  But the killing of such a large, dangerous animal just begs to be made into a memorable experience.  At one time, anyone could experience a hunt like that.  But not anymore. 
You could also take your buff in the other traditional manner-- from Horseback.  Riding in close and taking a running beast with a Hawkin rifle would make for a good hunt also.  Wink 

I figure that any way a hunter 'makes meat' is just a spoke in the wheel of life.  So long as we're not abusive of the privilege and use what we take, it's no different than buying a chicken or steak dinner--  except that the hunter is closer to the reality of life than a restaurant patron.

Good Hunting-   Rob
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Forty Rod
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2014, 11:46:13 pm »

hhughh, I won't "hunt" that way, but I don't condemn anyone who does.

I just ain't the way my stick floats.
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Camille Eonich
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2014, 06:03:31 pm »

 

  Riding in close and taking a running beast with a Hawkin rifle would make for a good hunt also.  Wink 



It could also turn into a disaster when a no kill shot and an enraged animal.
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Mean Bob Mean
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 08:40:33 pm »

Depends entirely upon the guide service/game ranch.  Some have fair chase rules and are strict about them, ask for clients to speak to.  Some will be like pole axing Bessy the cow.  It's not a "once in a lifetime experience" if it is like shooting a pet dog so I suggest spending the time and extra cash to get a good experience.  Buffalo are tough, make a fine trophy, and eat really well.  Nothing wrong with taking one off a piece of private land if the service is as ethical as you'd like to be.  
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jimbobborg
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2014, 09:03:06 pm »

From what I've read, most Bison are very wary, especially lone bulls.  No herd, no extra senses, they get real suspicious real fast.  Bison in parks are used to people, so they don't run when a car pulls up.  Wild Bison?  They're still wild animals, they fear predators, and run at the first sign of trouble.  As for upping the challenge, an open-sight Sharps in 45-70 or bigger will work.  I know my eyes would require being within 150 yards of something even that big to make an ethical shot.  If the guide service guarantees fair chase, I say go for it!
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jd45
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 09:41:20 pm »

My 2 cents. If the method you use to harvest this animal allows you to keep intact your personal integrity & you make this experience a postitive teachable moment for your son, both things I'd guess you'd like to do, then you won't suffer any regrets from the outcome. I suggest you think about this & get it clear in your mind before you follow thru on it. And you are not compelled to follow thru you know. You can decide you don't want to do it right now or with this animal. You could do it when your son is older enough to participate himself, and with a deer or elk, or even a buff.  If it were me I'd think it thru thoroughly. Hope all goes well, whichever way. jd45   
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