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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt SAA Clones (Moderators: Gen Lew Wallace, Hoof Hearted)  |  Topic: Clone "build" types 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Clone "build" types  (Read 17424 times)
Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2012, 10:02:59 am »

I suppose we should explain these things as they come up Wink

The Great Western was an early version marketed by EMF. When they stopped selling ASM pistols and went to Pietta manufactured ones. Boyd had Pietta roll mark his model as the "Great Western II" (I suppose as a tribute to the first SAA clone he sold).

HH
You listed Pietta and Great Western as separate clones. My Pietta is stamped “GREAT WESTERN II “, on the top of the barrel.
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2012, 12:19:36 pm »

Hoof,
I'm a little confused.  Is there more than one Walt at EMF?  The owner is Boyd (U.S. Grant) and the Walt at EMF I know about used to be with TTN until Cimarron took them over.  Was he at EMF before TTN?  Thanks.

And to Old Doc, I certainly don't know for sure about COWS and ASM, but I know that GOTW has made many a glaring error over the years  Smiley
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Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2012, 12:40:46 pm »

Old age wins again!

I was doing a lot of talking with Walt (the one you are referring to) about the Pepperbox conversion lately and know better but used Walt in place of Boyd Tongue
Walt was at the "Blank Guns" part of EMF and joined EMF after they split the blank guns portion off.

I have fixed my posts above.

HH
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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2012, 12:55:41 pm »

I know what you mean about old age.  Ar at least I, uh... what were we talking about?   Grin
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Texas John Ringo
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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2012, 04:57:48 pm »

The Real Great Western SA
http://www.gundigest.com/gun-collecting-firearm-collecting/the-first-colt-clone
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Jamie
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2012, 06:49:53 pm »

Thanks for the input.  I might just have to pick it up.  If I do, I'll let you know how it comes out.  Again, thanks for responding on the Bisley question!
Jamie
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 12:23:17 pm »


Adding a bit of information, I have been able to rebuild the lock works of several ASM SA clones using Pietta parts.  Some fitting required.  I still haven't found parts for the ASM 1851/1861 Conversions.  By the way, anybody have a pair of barrel assemblies for ASM, .38 Cal, 7 1/2 inch barrel??? Ime rebuilding two more ASM conversions.

Coffinmaker
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Silent Joe
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« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 11:36:56 am »

Beside my Colt SAA .45 I have a Western Marshal 38/357 from J.P.Sauer. It is a great gun. See pics.


* Western Marshal_2.jpg (43.61 KB, 800x481 - viewed 465 times.)

* Western Marshal_3.jpg (45.13 KB, 800x600 - viewed 432 times.)

* Western Marshal_4.jpg (43.29 KB, 800x600 - viewed 413 times.)

* Western Marshal_5.jpg (40.67 KB, 800x600 - viewed 411 times.)
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2012, 08:43:04 pm »

Adding a bit of information, I have been able to rebuild the lock works of several ASM SA clones using Pietta parts.  Some fitting required.  I still haven't found parts for the ASM 1851/1861 Conversions.  By the way, anybody have a pair of barrel assemblies for ASM, .38 Cal, 7 1/2 inch barrel??? Ime rebuilding two more ASM conversions.

Coffinmaker

Yea......good luck Undecided

I too use parts (frequently) from the other Italian makers to repair the ASM's. But it is a challenge and a bit of a compromise most of the time!

HH
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2012, 10:01:51 pm »


Based on recent information, we can add USFA to the list of "use to be."   Another one bites the dust.

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Major 2
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2012, 02:23:34 am »

Would you concider adding "Colt" themselves to the clone list ?

The short lived Colt "Cowboy" was made under licence to Colt,  in Germany
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2012, 07:16:43 pm »

I think that is a legit distinction and example.  I see it as any frame cast or forged as a reproduction of the original SAA.

Where those really made overseas?  No wonder they were such a flop.

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Fox Creek Kid
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2012, 09:11:59 pm »

The Colt Cowboy frame was made in Czechoslovakia.
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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2012, 01:06:28 pm »

I failed to notice KBI. I have a pair of Liberty II's in 44-40.
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2012, 04:31:53 pm »

KBI Liberty was built by Armi San Marco and then Pietta.
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2012, 08:32:31 pm »

Just thought of another.  Texas Longhorn Arms.
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Harley Starr
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2012, 10:37:16 pm »

American Western Arms Ultimate 1873.
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« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2012, 07:44:06 am »

TLA is a unique beast.  As a scholarly matter, I’d say it’s not really a clone, but a post modern, perfected single action.  I do understand that its cylinder frame blank was cast by Pine Tree Casting, IE, Ruger.

Just thinking in terms of frames and components, AWA ultimate is a Pietta build.  They are rightfully said to be made in America, but Pietta renders the raw components.
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« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2012, 10:11:08 am »

IMHO, if you're gonna count TLA, then you have to count every other single action revolver manufacturer. They made some fixed sight guns that looked like Colt SAA's but as far as I know, all of Grover's guns were on a large, .44Mag sized frame. They were also mirror image guns with the loading gate and ejector on the wrong side.  Wink

Same for the big J.P. Sauer and Herter's sixguns. Similar but larger. Different enough to NOT consider them a Colt SAA replica.
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Graveyard Jack SASS #81,827
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2016, 11:20:31 am »

I would add the clones made by the basque manufacturers from the 1881's until well into the XX century, until the 1920's.

So I would add:


-Larrañaga, Gárate y Compañía.

-Gárate y Compañía (sucessors).

-Gárate e Hijos (Gárate and son).

-Hermanos Quintana (a Mexican gun dealer importing Colts 1873 clones and later making them in their own factory in Spain).

-Anitúa y Charola.

-Orbea Hermanos y Compañía.

You can see some of them here:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/30-colt-1.pdf


http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/31-colt-2.pdf


they even patented later  a simplied version of the COLT SAA, with one piece frame and two screws for mechanism, known as "Sistema COLT´S (reformado)".


Some of these revolvers were of good quality, others so so. Orbea at that time was the largest factory making pistols in SPAIN, so not all of the mentioned above were small manufacturers.


There were other brands in both Spain and Belgium making and selling these revolvers in Mexico and South America, so it was not the italians the firts ones making clones of the Colt SAA in the XX century ouside  the USA.


In the late XIX century and the begining of the XX there was a big market in Mexico for firearms of affordable prices, so I would assume that many revolvers that we see in photos of the Mexican Revolution, could, in fact, not be Colts, but european clones of basque and Belgian origin.

The market was big in Argentina also, thought this was no place for the Colt SAA, but fot the Smith clones.

With a certain dismay, I have seen some respected authors writing reference  books  about  Colt clones where they fail to recognize Garates,  Orbeas, etc as spanish commercial revolvers, labelling them as "of unknown origin", despite being clearly marked with Orbea or Garate Hermanos logo, or with spanish and  basque legends in the  barrels,  which shows that even expert authors  can be wrong when it comes to investigate guns made in a foreign non english speaking country.

many revolvers deliberately included also barrels legends in English or Spanish, mentioning Colt or Winchester cartridges, in order to fool potential buyers into thinking that they were buying the original product. Most users would not speak english but would surely recognize  the words "Colt" or " Winchester".

all the best
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 05:26:05 pm »

Very interesting!  Thanks for the info and the links.
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llanerosolitario
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 06:49:24 pm »

you are welcome.

we must admit that it is really difficult to investigate about foreign guns when the info avaible is not in english...be it spanish gun makers, or russian, balkanic, etc...that is why not much has been written about these pre 1920´s clones and they remain unknown for most european and american gun enthusiasts and collectors, except in  Belgium and Spain.

 let me add that I have been told by a very important collector, here in SPAIN, who lived many years in Mexico, of several local gunsmiths in the Mexican area of PUEBLA, who made copies of american guns,  mainly of  the Colt 1873 and the  Winchesters 92 rifle, for the domestic market there, until the 1960´s.
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt SAA Clones (Moderators: Gen Lew Wallace, Hoof Hearted)  |  Topic: Clone "build" types « previous next »
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