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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt SAA Clones (Moderators: RRio, Gen Lew Wallace, Hoof Hearted)  |  Topic: Clone "build" types 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Clone "build" types  (Read 28193 times)
sack peterson
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« on: June 12, 2012, 07:36:39 pm »


This is a great new section that you fellows put together.  Its fodder for great discussions.

I was thinking, I believe I have identified all the clone builds.  My list is as follows, in rough chronological order:

Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta
Taurus
STI
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Forty Rod
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 07:38:25 pm »

AWA and the new AWA USA...two different companies.
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sack peterson
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 07:41:20 pm »

First AWA is an Armi San Marco build, second is a Pietta build.
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Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 09:35:20 pm »

This is a great new section that you fellows put together.  Its fodder for great discussions.

I was thinking, I believe I have identified all the clone builds.  My list is as follows, in rough chronological order:

Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta


Sack

I think you have this list pretty close to "right on the money"

HH
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pghrich
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 05:22:36 pm »

Hawes western marshal, i know they are not made anymore but there are plenty out there, i have one myself in 357 great trigger recessed cylinders nice grips, pghrich
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 06:17:56 pm »

Hawes western marshal, i know they are not made anymore but there are plenty out there, i have one myself in 357 great trigger recessed cylinders nice grips, pghrich
I believe the Hawes is/was German built. Sauer maybe?
Hopefully Sack will see this and chime in...........
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sack peterson
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 07:00:08 pm »

Exactly.  Hawes is a JP Sauer build.  That gun was an enormous success over the course of 20 years.
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 02:35:26 pm »

Didn't Taurus make a model called "Gaucho"?
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 05:48:34 am »

You're right!  I'm editing to add that.
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Long Johns Wolf
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 06:38:54 am »

Some more SAA clone makers:    
Beretta
Chaparral Arms
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien
STI International
Long Johns Wolf   
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BOSS 156, CRR 169 (Hon.), FROCS 2, Henry Board, SCORRS, STORM 229, SV Hofheim 1938, VDW, BDS, SASS
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 07:32:09 am »

Beretta is Uberti and should be added as:

Uberti/Beretta

Chaparral did produce a SAA

STI in Texas also did produce a SAA

Long John,

Could you please provide some links or other info regarding:
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien


Regards, HH

Some more SAA clone makers:    
Beretta
Chaparral Arms
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien
STI International
Long Johns Wolf   

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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 08:17:34 am »

Here we go: www.greatgun.eu
They do mostly lever action rifles of Henry, Henry Transitional, Win 73 and 92 pattern, but irregularly produce small batches of SAAs (Colt 1873 pattern) as well. Been there last year, saw the pistols (and the rifles). High end quality stuff.
Long Johns Wolf
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sack peterson
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2012, 10:18:52 am »

I overlooked STI.  I’ll add that.

My suspicion is that Chapparal’s is / was a private label for an Italian mfgd model we are already familiar with.  Next, we could do a list of private labels themselves.

You’d have to tell me more about the other one.
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Old Doc
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 10:16:05 pm »

AWA and the new AWA USA...two different companies.
Funny, they have the same phone number.
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Coffinmaker
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2012, 04:24:43 pm »


AWA and the "new" AWA USA are/were two separate companies.  AWA went bust following several law suits.  Richard Simpson started AWA USA a bit later but I believe in the same facility.  AWA USA guns are Not, to my knowledge, Pietta based.  Someone else was making his frames.
I haven't been able to contact them for some time ans don't know if AWA USA is still in business.

Coffinmaker
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Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 05:04:53 pm »

AWA and the "new" AWA USA are/were two separate companies.  AWA went bust following several law suits.  Richard Simpson started AWA USA a bit later but I believe in the same facility.  AWA USA guns are Not, to my knowledge, Pietta based.  Someone else was making his frames.
I haven't been able to contact them for some time ans don't know if AWA USA is still in business.

Coffinmaker

These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing Embarrassed

HH
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 05:38:13 pm »

These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing Embarrassed

HH
My memory of all this is kind of hazy but at some point I believe AWA actually bought Armi San Marco. I know there was a big flap over production problems on the pump action rifle.
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Old Doc
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 05:44:38 pm »

These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing Embarrassed

HH
Someone forgot that Colt once made a .357 revolver named the "Peacekeeper" and hence had rights to the name. That and the fact that those black plastic grips with the horse on them looked just a little too much like Colts' grip. Neither one of those might have been an issue if the gun did not look quality-wise more like a 2nd generation Colt, than the Colt of the period did.
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Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2012, 07:18:34 pm »

I guess this is as good a place as any to DISCUSS this ( I emphasized the word discuss here 'cause I don't want to have to deal with any attacks or insults between forum members or towards vendors over this).........

What Old Doc has said is correct and adds to what I posted. Except.........I don't think AWA bought ASM. I know a lot of the history about ASM through the period that Dave Anderson was having them make parts for his AFF "conversions", then ASM started building those conversions and selling them to CVA, Cimarron and others........Of course there were also issues with ASM and their quailty control at EMF eventually adding to or leading to Walt there going to the Pietta and them AWA using ASM to produce their line of SAA Clones. The way I understand it was AWA had the Colt Copyright infringemant issues (as metioned by myself and Old Doc above) and then made the unfortunate decision to sell the Lightning Magazine Rifle. The rest is history, so to speak!

Kudos really should go out to Boyd Davis at EMF for his YEARS of modifications to the ASM clone in order to make it more "Colt like". If it wasn't for ASM's poor quality control (I have been told that MANY, MANY pistols did not meet inspection at EMF and were purportedly remarked and sold to other companies) we could have still had a source for inexpensive parts that were 100% interchangeable with Colts Angry
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2012, 07:39:32 pm »

Obviously this is a loaded question, uh, so to speak Roll Eyes but I know where there's a "new" ASM Bisley 5.5 " barrel in 44-40 for $365.  Am I crazy to even consider it?  Colors are good, bluing looks good, but the grip fit is atrocious.  Gaps everywhere.  It was purchased by a nearby gunshop with a bunch of ASM and Uberti single action partial guns.  Some lacked backstraps, some lacked cylinders, and then again there were cylindered frames that lacked barrels.  For about $300 you might be able to make one out of two, but with New York registration laws, I'm standing off of that I think.  Anyway, the Bisley repo is complete.  Any thoughts?  If it isn't timed well, etc. what would a good tune up be, and how much of a rat hole would I be throwing my money down.  Again, any thoughts would be appreciated.  I'd like a 44-40 to go with my '73.
Jamie
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Old Doc
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2012, 08:00:07 pm »



What Old Doc has said is correct and adds to what I posted. Except.........I don't think AWA bought ASM.

You sound far more informed on the subject than myself, however, I do remember reading in a review of one of their guns, the part about then buying ASM. As we all know, just because you read it, don't make it right

Doc
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Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2012, 08:19:51 pm »

Obviously this is a loaded question, uh, so to speak Roll Eyes but I know where there's a "new" ASM Bisley 5.5 " barrel in 44-40 for $365.  Am I crazy to even consider it?  Colors are good, bluing looks good, but the grip fit is atrocious.  Gaps everywhere.  It was purchased by a nearby gunshop with a bunch of ASM and Uberti single action partial guns.  Some lacked backstraps, some lacked cylinders, and then again there were cylindered frames that lacked barrels.  For about $300 you might be able to make one out of two, but with New York registration laws, I'm standing off of that I think.  Anyway, the Bisley repo is complete.  Any thoughts?  If it isn't timed well, etc. what would a good tune up be, and how much of a rat hole would I be throwing my money down.  Again, any thoughts would be appreciated.  I'd like a 44-40 to go with my '73.
Jamie
Jamie

I see a fair number of pistols for repair and of the ASM's MOST of the SAA Clones work pretty well with very few problems (most of the issues were in the "conversions" of the 1851 and 1861). Realize that there are always exceptions and that the pistols you are referring to may have been "left overs" or "problem childs" but if you carefully check it out and all seems OK you are probably fine. Internal parts are not too difficult as Eddie Janis' parts for the 1st and 2nd gen will work.

HH
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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2012, 08:49:13 pm »

You sound far more informed on the subject than myself, however, I do remember reading in a review of one of their guns, the part about then buying ASM. As we all know, just because you read it, don't make it right

Doc

Quote: "Back in the latter 1990's, C.O.W.S. (Classic Old West Styles), makers of authentic Old West clothing and gun leather, headquartered in El Paso, Tx, decided to branch out into the replica gun market; hence was born American Western Arms. Not entirely satisfied with what was being produced in Italy, AWA acquired the Italian gun manufacturing firm of Armi San Marco for its own, so quality and ultimate design could be absolutely controlled. "
Guns of The Old West-Summer 2001, page 77.

I didn't say it was true. Just said I read it somewhere. So how come I can't remember what I had for breakfast. Wife says she's going to get me on one of those "hoarders" shows.
Doc
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Hoof Hearted
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 08:59:34 pm »

Well there ya go Shocked

Although still not so sure what acquired meant. I bet Boyd at EMF could provide some insight here.
Might just mean that they signed some sort of exclusive contract.

Based on the "Chaparral" venture and how it was vehemetly denied that ASM was the manufacturer of the parts by some and "behind closed doors" it was said that it was the "son" of ASM's owner by others and all the rest of the issues, we may never know the truth.

But with all that said I think it is safe to say that ASM and AWA are both ASM built just differing levels of quality!

Regards, HH
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2012, 10:20:12 am »

You listed Pietta and Great Western as separate clones. My Pietta is stamped “GREAT WESTERN II “, on the top of the barrel.
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt SAA Clones (Moderators: RRio, Gen Lew Wallace, Hoof Hearted)  |  Topic: Clone "build" types « previous next »
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