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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: The Chiappa 1886 Winchester 45-70 (Puma) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The Chiappa 1886 Winchester 45-70 (Puma)  (Read 14274 times)
Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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« on: March 09, 2012, 10:06:14 pm »


She came today... Hope I am not violating the Forum rules by showing this rifle.
Have not shot the rifle as of yet, waiting on brass which seems to be sold out everywhere. Ordered a large batch from Starline.  My comments on the rifle as it comes ROB.  A good looking rifle, good fitting on rear and forehand stocks. Chiappa case hardening is not as good as the Uberti rifles in my opine. The rifle is a very good copy of the original. Does not have any GOOFY LOOKING SAFETIES built into it like a lot of the '92s have. The action is VERY STIFF and will need some work. Trigger is a bit heavy and needs to be lightened some. Was very impressed with the rifle as far as looks. Here are some pictures of the 1886 Winchester in 45-70 caliber by Chiappa, for whatever reasons they call it a "Puma"Huh? Will entertain any comments or questions if'n you are interested. Rifle was ordered thru my local gun dealer.  Same rifle that is shown at Taylor's and Company, but my dealer got me one heck of a better price than Taylor's show and since my 45-60 barrel blew up, I am not so inclined to be a happy camper with Taylor's... but that is me. Enjoy


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"If I killed that kid, it was the best shot I ever made, and the dirtiest trick I ever did."
Grizzly Adams
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 08:04:06 pm »

Nice rifle, Tom. Smiley  I have handled/pawed these several times since they began bringing them in.  Seem to be very high quality, and true to the original.  At the Shot Show I saw the Pedersoli version of the 1886/71, and it is also a fine looking rifle.  Good to see so many quality reproductions being made.  Keep us posted on how she shoots.

GA
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Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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SASS#86684 Wartrace Regulators


« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 07:43:41 pm »

Grizz and Others,

I completed the action work on the Chiappa 1886. Wheeeew I will not be taking this rifle apart very much. That Carrier Hook is a &^%$#@ to get back in. Yup, I tried the rubber ban trick and a string, the hook is STILL HARD TO GET BACK IN. All I can say is that JMB must have been born with three arms and hands with 7 to 8 fingers on each hand. After the action work I tested the Main Spring with empty cartridges loaded with primers to make sure I did not remove too much metal on the Main Spring.

Now I have a question for those who shoot or own the Chiappa 1886.  The action works much better now after slicking it to a point. That POINT BEING... as you lever down and go forward with the lever... the POINT is where the lever starts to push up the CARRIER. When that POINT arrives... You really have to push HARD to get the lever through its complete cycle.

My theory: Would changing the EJECTOR SPRING to a WEAKER SPRING CORRECT this problem???  Would appreciate anyone's comments or "their" theory on this.  Thanks in advance.

I covered the lever with a home-made lever wrap with padding and I made the leather butt plate cover... my old shoulder just cannot take that cresent butt plate like it  did when I was younger.


* 1886framewleather.jpg (42.83 KB, 623x228 - viewed 905 times.)
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Abilene
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 09:29:50 pm »

...My theory: Would changing the EJECTOR SPRING to a WEAKER SPRING CORRECT this problem???  Would appreciate anyone's comments or "their" theory on this.  Thanks in advance....

Okay, I know the '86 is somewhat different than the '92 (only because you already told me so  Smiley ), but on a '92 that stiff ejector spring only makes it harder to pull the lever closed the last little bit.  When the lever is going forward as you mentioned, isn't the ejector fully forward out of the bolt face?  I'm not sure how that spring would come in to play at that point.  Is it possible to simply remove the ejector and spring and see if that makes a difference?  Or would the lever then not properly connect to the bolt?  As you can see, I did not stay at a Holiday Express last night  Cheesy  But I look forward to your eventual resolution of the issue.
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Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 08:29:46 pm »

Okay, I know the '86 is somewhat different than the '92 (only because you already told me so  Smiley ), but on a '92 that stiff ejector spring only makes it harder to pull the lever closed the last little bit.  When the lever is going forward as you mentioned, isn't the ejector fully forward out of the bolt face?  I'm not sure how that spring would come in to play at that point.  Is it possible to simply remove the ejector and spring and see if that makes a difference?  Or would the lever then not properly connect to the bolt?  As you can see, I did not stay at a Holiday Express last night  Cheesy  But I look forward to your eventual resolution of the issue.
Abilene- You are right and my theory STH in a basket...LOL. As you lever the '86 the Ejector is FULLY OUT so it would not be the Ejector Spring causing the problem. Looking inside the rifle frame with a bright light, as I lever it... when it reaches the point in question...IT APPEARS (Huh) that the Carrier Hook (which travels in a cut-out slot) which is on the bottomside of the Carrier. This Carrier Hook has two studs (metal tits) one to the front of the Hook on the right side and one on the left to the rear. These studs (tits) ride in a channel. When the lever is all the way up or closed as in firing, the Carrier is all the way down to pick up the next round out of the magazine tube. As you lever down to eject the fired cartridge, this Carrier Hook moves to the rear. There is a "hump" in this channel that the Carrier Hook has to go over in order to raise the Carrier with a new round so the breech bolt can pick it up and chamber it in the levering process.  My guessing is that this hump has to be there, but it sure makes it hard to lever.

IF that is not the problem, then I do not know what is causing it. YOU ARE CORRECT.. tis not the Ejector Spring.  Thank you. Now to figure out how to fix it???
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"If I killed that kid, it was the best shot I ever made, and the dirtiest trick I ever did."
Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2012, 12:25:12 am »

SOLUTION FOUND-

I finally figured it out on making the '86 much slicker. I did change out the Ejector Spring to a much WEAKER SPRING. Now the empty cartridges fall out to my feet and not 6 feet away.  The CARRIER and THE CARRIER HOOK is what makes the '86 HARD to LEVER. I polished the CARRIER HOOK to a mirror finish and then went to work on the CARRIER.  This is not for the faint hearted. The CARRIER has a CHANNEL on the underside that the CARRIER HOOK slides in. As I said previously, there is a "HUMP" in this channel towards the rear of the channel. I started with 100 grit and worked up to 800 grit sandpaper/emery. The channel now has a mirror finish and the hump is still there, but it is smoother. Then I went to work on the sides of the CARRIER. (see pictures, you cannot see the channel, it is on the R side of carrier.)  I removed a lot of metal from the "flat" projections you see on the sides of the Carrier. The FLAT AREAS ride against the FRAME on the inside and they BIND when you lever and towards the rear where you see it rounded with a hole, this rides against the hammer. I also did extensive polishing of the LEVER at the top where the CAM is that goes up in the bottomside of the breech bolt. This CAM is what pushes the EJECTOR COLLAR against the EJECTOR SPRING and causes the EJECTOR to expend the fired cartridge. Also where the CARRIER HOOK connects to the Lever this area was highly polished. The '86 is not as slick as my '92 but she is darn close. At least it does not bruise my fingers now when levering. Weakening the EJECTOR SPRING helped a lot. I polished the "flats" on the CARRIER... and I had to remove a lot of metal to get all of the factory grinding marks out. So the secret to the '86 is all in the CARRIER and that CHANNEL that is on the underside of the Carrier where the Carrier Hook stud slides forward and aft. After my fingers recooperate from all that sanding, I will disassemble and work on the Channel again to make the rifle work even better. So.... Grizz and others.... that is How I Did it.


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"If I killed that kid, it was the best shot I ever made, and the dirtiest trick I ever did."
Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 07:50:52 pm »

I finally got to take the '86 to the range for a shooting session.  I started at the 25 yard range to see how bullets were hitting in regards to POA.  At 25 yards my shot groups were off to the left about 8".  I adjusted the front sight and that corrected that problem. The rear sight that came on my rifle is a FLAT BUCKHORN which is ok...BUT the slot that is cut in the rear sight is too small for the front sight.  You cannot get a sight picture... all you see is black. So that will change before next shooting session. Will install a Tang Sight and that will correct that problem.  After my action job on the rifle, and firing 50 rounds yesterday, the action loosened up even more. Knuckles are not getting bruised when levering.  The rifle does shoot well.  I shot it at the 100 and 200 and even with an impaired sight as stated above was able to get a 3 round shot group that will fit in a 5 inch circle at 200 yards.  I think that will improve drastically when I change out the rear sight and install the tang sight.  I was shooting Accurate 5744 at 27 to 29 grains underneath a 405 grain RNFP bullet. This is a good load for the 200 yards range for those interested.  27 to 29 grains is easy on the shoulder and the 5744 is very consistent.  I shot Trail Boss at 12.9 grains under a 405 gr RNFP, at 200 yards it was not consistent in my opine. Maybe TB would do better at 14 to 16 grains in the 45-70. Have to try that sometime and see.  Sorry no chrony info on those loads. But I did like the acc 5744.  After I change the rear sight and shoot it again, will tell you how she performs with a better sight.
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"If I killed that kid, it was the best shot I ever made, and the dirtiest trick I ever did."
Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 09:47:14 pm »

Grizz and Others,

I removed the flat buckhorn sight and replaced with a vernier tang sight. Back to the range and started at the 25 yard to see how the Vernier Tang was working.  Much improved.  Went to the 100 yards and shot 10 rounds, all were in a 7' inch black bullseye.  Went over to the 200 yard range, fired 2 rounds and they were low but online with the center of the bullseye Using a 10" bullseye. Made adjustment in elevation and fired 8 rounds and they were all in the black ... so the Vernier works well with the '86.  I have done more slicking on the Carrier and the Carrier Channel for the Carrier Hook and I replaced the Ejector Spring with a much lighter one.  The Chiappa '86 (Puma) now levers the way a lever action should, nice and smooth. I have reduced the trigger sping so that the pull is now right at 2 lbs.  The rifle is now fun to shoot... and my knuckles are not black and blue.  Here are a couple of pictures showing the Vernier Tang Sight installed.  Kudo's to all of you.  The Chiappa '86 Looks Good ROB ... and it is VERY PERIOD correct.  But the action is mighty STIFF.  But with patience and a lot of rubbing with the grit... makes her as smooth as a babies bottom.


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* chiappa1886frameandtangsight.jpg (90.94 KB, 640x480 - viewed 722 times.)
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Rowdy Fulcher
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2012, 07:41:34 pm »

Tom Horn
I was able to shoot some 45-70 loaded with Swiss and they were GREAT . Sorry for being slow to get back with you on this .
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rbertalotto
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2012, 05:09:30 am »

Great write-up. Thanks!

I have a Winchester 1886 Take Down in 45-70 with a Marbles tang sight and a Beeches front sight. Super accuracy with Ranch Dog 425g lead bullets over RL7 or 4198. At 100 yards it will put three of five into one hole with the other two opening the group to 1". I couldn't be more pleased. And it fits in the saddle bags of my motorcycle!



More pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/1886-winchester-tak/
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Roy B
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Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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SASS#86684 Wartrace Regulators


« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2012, 10:39:52 pm »

Thanks Rowdy,

The closest I have come to the BP I used trip7. It shot well, but most of my shooting with the '86 has been with smokeless loads trying to emulate or get as close to the original MV as possible.  I have not shot the '86 as much as I have the 45-60, but me thinks I like the '86 better. After I installed the Vernier Tang on the '86, it is deadly accurate at 200 and 300 yards.  I know some of you folks do not care for Accurate 5744, but I shot 20 rounds of it, cartridge loaded with 29 grains under a 405gr RNFP bullet and at 200 yards I got the Bang to Clang with all 20.  Using same round at 300 yards I fired 10 rounds at a 10" black bullseye and all 10 were in the black in an area the size of a softball. For me that is good, not a youngster anymore. I can see better than I can hear....LOL         But they are both great rifles, in my opine. 
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mex
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2012, 11:42:14 am »

does anyone have a video how the chiappa 45-70 breaks down. I can't get the lever screw out. It's not like a winchester 92. I'd like to clean up the action.....any help ?
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Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 11:18:33 am »

Mex-

Do not have or know of a Video for disassembling the Chiappa 86 (Puma) 45-70.  You are correct, it does not breakdown like the '92.  The '86 has a "S-hook" that connects to the lever and the elevator ramp, it is a *%$@* to disassemble. I cannot remember the website, but if you Google "Disassembly of the 1886 rifle" you will find it. The rifle they show is NOT a Chiappa it is the Japanese version.  But there is not that much difference. Unless your rifle is really all that dirty, disassembly is not for the faint hearted, believe me, that S-Hook will give you fits to get back in. If yours is really that dirty get you a can of spray brake cleaner and spray the insides of the rifle and work the lever till all of the gunk is clear... that is easier than disassembly.  I did the action work on mine and afterwards all I do is spray it clean.  I do not disassemble the '86... TOO MUCH TROUBLE and it is not necessary unless you wish to do an action job (making it slicker).  You can contact me via email and I will be glad to send you copies of disassembly and reassembly...too long to post here.
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Jimeast
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 08:39:24 am »

Thomas Horn, 

Can you share the information for the replacement ejector spring you used in your above tutorial?
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