Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 20, 2017, 11:33:01 pm

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: Home-made Lube 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Home-made Lube  (Read 31302 times)
Steel Horse Bailey
Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey" - BP Warthog & C&B Shooter
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 6175


A Master of the Sublime & Holy Order or the Soot


« on: August 25, 2005, 10:56:41 pm »


I have tried the "make yer own lube thing" and I think it's come out fine.  I used 1/4 lb. parraffein (sp?), 1/4lb. beeswax, and several cups of olive oil.  I think it would be great for pan lubing.

The problem is, I also need some lube that is soft enough to put in front of my C&B balls.  About the consistancy of Crisco (or a touch firmer) would be perfect. I have a squirter made of brass that is very similar to a cake decorator, but it looks better and more period correct since it's made of brass.  I got it from Dixie.  I have a small amount of "Spit Ball" that works fine, but it isn't made anymore.

Any ideas?
Logged

"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly
Tangle Eye
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 155



WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2005, 11:10:13 pm »

I normally use 1 part beeswax to 1 part crisco (the buttery kind smells better  Grin) but that's too firm for you purpose.  You could use less wax and more and that might work. What you need is just enough wax to keep it firmer then just crisco. I've also heard that soy wax works well too. I've got some but haven't made any lube with it yet.  You could give it a try - I think it would work.

I generally don't lube the cap n balls but use a dry wad or filler under the ball. (I'm of the opinion that chain fires start from the nipple end - not the ball end.  I just put the wad in there to take up space since I don't want to shoot a chamber full all the time.)

Hope this helps a little bit.
Logged

Warthog, SBSS #506, Sons of Confederate Veterans Camp #219, NRA Life
Mason Stillwell
BP C&B SHOOTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 574



« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2005, 07:33:02 am »

Howdy Pard

I use Remingtons and they like lube on the front of the cylinder. Makes things turn more freely.

I use the same lube as for my boolits I just dd crisco until it is the right thickness for squarting thur my needle.

Hope this helps

Mason
ALmost forgot. My lube is Tolet bowl ring ,Crisco, Olive Oil,small candle.Works great.It really keeps the Remingtosn turning free.
Logged

Mason Stillwell


Grand Pap to 4
BP C&B Shooter.

Known early on as Pole Cat Pete
Tar Heel at Heart
Cuts Crooked
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1307



WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2005, 07:58:17 am »

Mason's got right! Jist remelt with more crisco or oil until you get the consistancy yer wantin'!  Smiley
Logged

Warthog
Bold
Scorrs
Storm
Dark Lord of the Soot
Honorary member of the Mormon Posse
NCOWS #2250
SASS #36914
...work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody is watching...
Steel Horse Bailey
Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey" - BP Warthog & C&B Shooter
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 6175


A Master of the Sublime & Holy Order or the Soot


« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2005, 07:58:47 am »

Thanks, fellas.

Tangle Eye, I b'lieve you're right about the chain fires starting from the nipple end, not the front.  It just seems that my guns work better when that grease goes down the barrel first and makes ever'thin slick before-hand.  Especially my Remington, like Mason's.

What do y'all think if I added about double the amount of olive oil to what I have?  Would it just make a mess or perhaps get it to the right consistancy?  I only have a bit more of the ingredients, so I don't want to waste them.

Most people don't realize that ya have to be something of a chemist to shoot/lube Black Powder Cap 'n Ball guns! Roll Eyes
Logged

"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly
Steel Horse Bailey
Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey" - BP Warthog & C&B Shooter
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 6175


A Master of the Sublime & Holy Order or the Soot


« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 07:59:42 am »

Thanks for the encouragement, Cuts!
Logged

"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly
Delmonico
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24286



« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2005, 02:13:18 pm »

For a store bought on for cap and ball, the bore butter should be about right for all but real cold weather.

For boooolits I started using 50% beeswax and 50% deer tallow by weight about 10 years ago and never looked back.  It don't melt out in 100+ weather and it works well in the cold.  Course ya have to shoot a fat deer now and then render, but that's no biggy.

Oh, fergot it is the best hand cream and lip balm I've ever used, as a former painter I'd about tried them all.
Logged

Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.
Black River Smith
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 797


« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 11:22:40 pm »

Steel Horse

Just saw your posting.  Hope I am not too late to try and help you out.  You stated using 1/4lb of both & cups of Olive Oil,so you should have something near 8 to 16 oz in wt. 1/2 lb to a full lb of finished product.

If you weigh it, then take only 1/4 of that weight (2 to 4 oz) and start adding more olive oil to it.  Keep track of the new amount of Olive Oil and when you hit the correct consistence of 'soft lube' just tally up the new volume/weight with the 1/4 of the original Olive Oil.  Then you can calculate total/overall for the soft lube. That way you don't alter all of your """hard lube for cast bullets"" and if you over shoot the olive oil (toooo soft) you have hard stuff to add.  Also that way you won't be using up a lot of Olive Oil.  Then next time you need the soft stuff you will be using lesser amounts of Crisco and Beeswax.

Call if you want help......  or Email if easier I will work you through the #'s

Black River Smith  (NCOWS Convention)
Logged

Black River Smith
Sergeant Smokepole
Dark Lord of The Soot
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 127



« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2005, 02:57:46 am »

3 pounds of Crisco and 2 wax toilet seals. This mix works great from -10 to 105 degrees in direct sunlight. It also allows me to fire over 200 rounds without cleaning.
Logged
Dick Dastardly
Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4459



WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2005, 07:59:13 am »

Sarge is the one that put me on to the "secret" ingredient for my Pearl Lube.  I take equal parts by weight of wax toilet seal ring, cheep vegie shortnin' and cheep container blend Soy wax, melt 'em together in a double boiler, stir and pour lube slugs.

The stuff is adjustable to need.  Want it stiffer, use more Soy wax.  Want it softer, use more shortnin'.  Want it sticker, use more wax ring.  By simply varying the mix it can be made to fit the mission.  The interesting thing is this.  The stuff in the wax rings seems to impart a property that nothing else will do.  It makes Pearl Lube motion activated.  That is, it's stiff enuf to stay put till it's moved.  Then it becomes very soft and runny.  This is great cuz no lube remains on any of my recovered boolits.  All the lube is available and used in the bore where it's needed.

Thanks Sarge.

DD-DLoS
Logged

Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies
44caliberkid
Guest
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2005, 10:30:49 am »

Back when I was reading all the home made lube recipes, I saw where a couple guys were substituting peanut oil for olive oil because of it's greater resistance to heat, before it burns.  Made sense to me, so I put some in my last batch.  Haven't tried it yet though.
Logged
Surly Bob
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 66



« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2005, 09:02:38 pm »

Where can you find soy wax?

BTW DD - That 200 grain big lube boolit mold works great.  Shot my first black powder match in BP Duelist at NCOWS Midwest Regional and came home with first place.  I figger it's the boolits.....'cause I'm pretty slow....especially with my left hand...
Logged

Uh, it's been a while since I was in a fight.
I panicked!
Fell back, like to have broke my foot!
Well, or that damn Cuban cigar got me riled up
hellgate
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2005, 11:45:09 am »

I gave up on home made lubes (used various combinations of olive oil & beeswax) because the temperatures hers in spring & fall can vary so much that in th ecold AM the lube could be too stiff and by afternoon it's too soft. I had a cold weather lube (2 parts oil & 1 part BW) and a warm weather lube (50/50 BW/OO). I finally just went to automotive greases like AMS/OIL Synthetic Grease, AMS/OIL Racing Grease, generic white lithium grease etc as over ball lubes in the C&Bs. The auto lubes will "syringe" at all temperatures and not melt. The bores stay clean & the cylinders still turn (the Remingtons need an oil drop between stages). Having said that, I may need to try Sgt Smokepole's toilet seal formula. I like the "motion activated" characteristic.
Logged

"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

SASS#3302L
REGULATOR
RUCAS#58
Wolverton Mt. Peacekeepers
SCORRS
DGB#29
NRA Life
CASer since 1992
Howdy Doody
CAS-L Ghost Rider
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1103



« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2005, 12:12:27 pm »

I made up a batch of lube this summer. It worked pretty dang good for pan lubing the Sankebites and PRS match bullets.
I used one of the full cups of tallow from Dixie, one pound of beeswax, one tube of Thompsons bore lube and a cake of crisco ( the new wrapped cakes) and heated the stuff up and mixed well. It worked well for pan lubing. I haven't tried it yet for colder weather, but I will probably mix in some more crisco.
The stuff smells good due tot he Thompsons and it really holds in the big grooves well. Smiley
Logged

yer pard,
Howdy Doody
Notorious BP shooter

Dirty Dan Dawkins
Wyoming or bust!
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 89


Mid Ga's electric cowboy


« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2006, 06:48:54 am »

I have used "Camp Dry" before asa an experiment when out of bore butter ( which I have had to run on me) The "Camp Dry" is a waterproofer containiing mink oil, and some other compounds. Did ok ......for about 20 rounds. Then time to clean. I wonder if "Snoshield" would work? Similar to "Camp Dry" but beeswax and lanolin...hmm...just some thoughts and experiments in physics and chemistry....
Logged

I play cards with J.D. Shellnut....chief of Police...SO get off my a**!!!!!!!!!!
Grapeshot
Grapeshot. Cpt US Artillery
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1083


WARTHOG


« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2006, 12:26:03 pm »

I'll add my $0.02 worth.  Recently mixed up a batch of home made lube that came out too soft for bullet lube, but was great for sticking in the front of cylinders.  It was just a tad stiffer than Bore Butter but not by much.  Started out with a 50/50 mix of Beeswax and Crisco and about 1/4 cup of Crisco Vegtable Oil.  Used some of it in the mouths of my Shotgun Hulls to keep fouling down in the shotgun and in the chamber mouths of my sixguns to keep them working through the match and promote easier cleanup.

Your milage may vary.
Logged

Listen!  Do you hear that?  The roar of Cannons and the screams of the dying.  Ahh!  Music to my ears.
Dakota Widowmaker
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 744


SASS# 65062


« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2006, 11:30:29 pm »

1 lb of bees wax
1 "bar" of crisco
1 cup of canola or olive oli
1 ring of Bol-Wax

And if its going to be hot out, I add a block of canning wax/parafin from the canning section at the store.

This all thickens up nice and works like a charm.

I melt bees wax, bol wax and oil the stove top in a big aluminum foil pan (the cheap dispoable kind from the store) and then put the crisco in last. I heat at 300 F for an hour.

4 table spoons of murphy's oil soap also helps keep the mix from seperating... add the oil soap just as you are removing it from heat and stir it in.

I don't always add oil soap. If I add parafin, I usually do.

Anyhow, this is easily enough lube for 3 sets of pans for pan-lubing and enough to fill my lyman #45 sizer a few times as well.

I keep extra stuff, without the parafin, as bullet lube for when I go cap-n-ball shooting.
Logged
Howdy Doody
CAS-L Ghost Rider
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1103



« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2006, 01:47:36 pm »

Me? I buy tallow from Dixie Gun Works and I use equal portions of that and beeswax that I buy from Michaels crafts stores. I add a bit of paraffin to the mix for hot weather and in cold weather add a bit of crisco. Lately, I add a dab of Thompsons bore butter (mostly cuz I like the smell of it) and that gives me a yellowish tint. Melt it all in an old microwave I have in the garage and mix well. This mess does me well for pan lubing and for pouring right into my lubersizer.
I have had very good results in my 38-55 and 45-70 and more important I can shoot a two day main match with my lube and big lube bullets and Goex Pinnacle and not have to clean my pistols or rifle.
The microwave sure makes it easy compared to double boilers and such. It is especially fast for pan lubing. That is another subject altogether though.
Logged

yer pard,
Howdy Doody
Notorious BP shooter

Howdy Doody
CAS-L Ghost Rider
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1103



« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 12:56:48 am »

Whoa Goatlips.............not beef tallow. I should have said the tallow from Dixie is mutton tallow aka sheep tallow.
I got turned on to that from stuff from the ol' Felix lube formula, which BTW is excellent probably for BPCR, but I found way to much effort for CAS.
Dixie sells the stuff in small plastic containers, and I have had some stored a couple of years and it doesn't get rancid. Adding Crisco to the mix helps make the mix soft, but since I live in a pretty toasty climate, I found that adding the paraffin like you buy at the grocery for canning stiffens the mix.
I have shot my style lube with Goex, Goex Cowboy, APP and my current powder Goex Pinnacle and the fouling stays real soft all the way in my 20" rifle and of course my RVs too. The big lube bullets help a lot too, since they carry so much lube compared to regular bullets.
Logged

yer pard,
Howdy Doody
Notorious BP shooter

Modoc
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 302


Editor, Shasta Regulators State of Jefferson


WWW
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2006, 11:13:04 pm »

Anyone here know what a wax toilet ring weighs?  Huh

Thanks,

Modoc
Logged

Modoc

"He Who Laughs Last, Thinks Fastest"
SUDDS, SCORRS, Retired Warthog, Sometime Gunfighter, and Soot Deliante
Steel Horse Bailey
Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey" - BP Warthog & C&B Shooter
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 6175


A Master of the Sublime & Holy Order or the Soot


« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2006, 10:23:51 am »

Isn't it between 1 & 3 lbs.?

Also, be careful about your wax rings.  They often use a newer wax, so be sure you grab the right type, the 100% natural type.











Logged

"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
by Joss Whedon 2002 - Firefly
Dakota Widowmaker
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 744


SASS# 65062


« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2007, 05:17:22 pm »

I have seen so many weird recipes for lube, there doesn't appear to be much documentation on what each component will do other than tribal knowledge, as they say.

I will share my recipe in hopes that it solves someone elses problem.

1 ring of bol-wax
Now, I have heard folks pooh-pooh bol-wax as being petroleum based on causing problems all on its own, but, when used with other products, it has one value I find irresistable. Its sticky and makes the lube stick to the lube groves on bullets well enough to pan lube.

1 "bar" of crisco
I have nothing against tallow, lard, ...etc or otherwise, but, crisco is such a fine product for BP in general, I can't help put some in every recipe. It will go bad after a while on its own, but, when mixed with other ingredients and stored in the fridge, its never given me reason to worry.

1 "slab" of canning parafin/wax
Some form of wax, be it parafin or bees, is nice for firming up and raising the melting temp of your lube. Parafin/canning wax is easy to come by at most any grocery store.

1 cup of olive oil
Olive oil has 2 great properties. 1) is a lubricant and 2) it prevents the crisco from spoiling.



Now, if shooting in colder climates, I will use more olive oil and less parafin. If shooting in hotter climates, I will use less olive oil and put in more parafin. I rarely use more/less crisco or bol-wax.

This is my recipe, it works well, and I have not seen hard fouling with any of my guns.

I use the same thing with more olive oil and less parafin for putting over the loaded ball in my cap-n-ball revolvers/muzzleloaders.
Logged
Dick Dastardly
Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4459



WWW
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2007, 05:33:27 pm »

What works - works.  Yup, there's a lot of tribal wisdom around.  Some is worth about what you pay for it.  Others is valuable in the extreme.

There are lots of properties that a good black powder lube has to have.  Precise quantification and qualification is difficult.  Preferred results are easier.  Maintaining good accuracy is one.  maintaining continuing function is another.  Still another is ease of cleanup.  I'll offer one more.  There should be some corrosion protection.  The successful recipe needs to be repeatable.  Then, if it is to be shipped, it needs to withstand all that the shaved apes hired by the shipper can deal out to it and arrive a viable product.  Finally, if it's a product you want to sell, it has to be priced fair and still make a profit.

These were a few of the considerations I had to face when I developed PL-I and PL-II.

Dakota Widowmaker, it looks like you have a good recipe.

DD-DLoS
Logged

Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies
hellgate
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1519



« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2007, 07:54:03 pm »

Widowmaker,
How big is a "bar" of Crisco? Lard comes in a 1 pound brick.
How big is a "slab" of wax? I've seen 1 lb and 5 lb slabs of both bees & pariffin was.
Logged

"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

SASS#3302L
REGULATOR
RUCAS#58
Wolverton Mt. Peacekeepers
SCORRS
DGB#29
NRA Life
CASer since 1992
Dick Dastardly
Master of the Dark Arts - MDA
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4459



WWW
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2007, 07:28:55 am »

Thanks Cuts,

I should have said that.  This topic is well preserved in the Dark Arts area.

FWIW, crisco has some stuff that your gun can't appreciate.  Stuff like yellow color and butter aroma do nothing for the performance but add to the price.  Cheep store brand vegie shortnin' will do as well or better and cost less.

Also, look around for your paraffin wax sources.  I've seen huge candles for sale at junk stores for way less then new canning wax.  True, you may have to put up with some bayberry or heather fragrances,  but the stuff is mostly just wax.

Extra virgin olive oil is spendy.  Your guns will be just as happy  with pumice grade.  I've seen it at junk stores for around $4 a gallon.

Good luck in the Dark Arts area with the recipes.  There are a LOT of good ones.  You should find one that suits your ingredient list.

DD-DLoS
Logged

Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: Home-made Lube « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.071 seconds with 22 queries.