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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Colt Firearms (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: colt 2nd generation cap and ball pistols 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: colt 2nd generation cap and ball pistols  (Read 28480 times)
Major 2
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2016, 04:14:47 pm »

can someone of you tell me how these revolvers are judged from a legal point of view? Are they considered modern guns or are they free to send them to Germany if I buy one?
Backgrouns is, that I'm from Germany and I'm strongly interested in a 2nd generation Colt 1860 Army. I already own two 1851 Navies and one 1861 Navy and today I purchased the two gun set of Lee and Grant Navies but 1860 Army are so rare and hard to find. I wonder if it is possible to buy such a gun from a dealer in the US without the trouble of an export dealer.

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Texas Jack
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AS far at the international legalities go...that is a question someone in the import realm .
in the States they are not coincided modern guns or subject to the BATF laws of transport , transfer or sale...
( though a few States { NJ, NY , Calif. }  have draconian laws pertaining to their sale, ownership or transportation )
Here cap & ball (non conversions) may be sold , shipped & owned without registration or restriction  except the 3 states above and perhaps Ill. & Conn.

I invite you to reach out to:  

Long Johns Wolf Wolf@1960NMA.org

FAX +49-6192-901293

He can answer every question on import and even The Belgian 1860 "Belgian Colt"

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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2016, 01:53:48 am »

Major2, Texas Jack & campfire: Legally C&B revolvers are no "guns" in the US like they are in Germany.
No export license is needed to ship them over there.
The issue is there are only a few forwarding agents that are prepared to go through the paperwork of shipping them.
It will cost you close to $ 200,00 to get them over here.
Long Johns Wolf
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« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2016, 02:17:17 am »

Major2 and Long Johns Wolf,

thank you for your answers. You confirmed what I was thinking about the cap & ball revolvers.

@Long Johns Wolf
when you look at my updated signature you will see that we know each other. I will call you and talk to you when I'm back from my business trip.
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Texas Jack
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« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2016, 02:59:28 am »

Kid, I look forward to your call.
Long Johns Wolf
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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2016, 12:38:58 pm »

When Colt produced the 2nd generation cap and ball revolvers they also produced black powder accessories kits in all necessary calibers to complete the wooden presentation cases for the guns. Does sombody here know what was the price for these kits and presentation cases?
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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2016, 11:17:25 pm »

Major2, Texas Jack & campfire: Legally C&B revolvers are no "guns" in the US like they are in Germany.
No export license is needed to ship them over there.
The issue is there are only a few forwarding agents that are prepared to go through the paperwork of shipping them.
It will cost you close to $ 200,00 to get them over here.
Long Johns Wolf

My Dear Herr Wolf -
It is my understanding that C&B revovlers are  sold "over the counter" in France with no paperwork to basically anyone.
Would it be possible & legal  for a German resident to take the train to France and pick an 1860 up and carry it home?

yhs
prf mvl
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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2016, 02:13:13 am »

Guten Morgen, mein verehrter Herr Professor,
This German citizen residing in Germany may travel to France by car, train or plane, and buy a percussion revolver there without any hazzle.
But if this same person elects to bring the piece home to Germany he
# MUST possess an appropriate gun license covering the purchase & the
# EC transfer permit to bring it legally into the country.
We Europeans like to make life complicated sometimes.
Long Johns Wolf
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2016, 04:16:12 pm »

Texas Jack,

Someone will want to throw a rock at me for saying this.  I will anyway.  Before I retired, I spent about 20 years as a CAS gunsmith.  SO:

Considering the cost (upwards of $200,000 USD) just to get a 2d Gun Colt imported to Germany, you should first consider this.

The Second Generation Colt Percussion guns are just very fancy Uberti's.  Uberti provided all the parts which went to a 3rd party contractor who assembled them.  Colt took NO PART in building the 2d Gen Colts.  The only thing to distinguish the 2d Gen Colts from Uberti are the roll marks stamped on the frame and barrel.

You would be much better served to start with Uberti, do the necessary things to make it right and then go play with it.  The Second Generation Colt Percussion is absolutely NO investment.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2016, 05:40:49 pm »

When Colt produced the 2nd generation cap and ball revolvers they also produced black powder accessories kits in all necessary calibers to complete the wooden presentation cases for the guns. Does sombody here know what was the price for these kits and presentation cases?

Not to be snide or anything but the Colt Gens were out 40 years ago.  The prices then bare no relevance to the prices now.  If you just want to know as a matter of interest look up an old catalog on the Internet.  They are available for a few dollars.  The flasks were made by Dixon in England.  I think Dixie Gun Works still sells them.
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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2016, 12:50:39 am »

Guten Morgen, mein verehrter Herr Professor,
This German citizen residing in Germany may travel to France by car, train or plane, and buy a percussion revolver there without any hazzle.
But if this same person elects to bring the piece home to Germany he
# MUST possess an appropriate gun license covering the purchase & the
# EC transfer permit to bring it legally into the country.
We Europeans like to make life complicated sometimes.
Long Johns Wolf

Guten Abend mein lieber Freund Herr Wolf,

Danke Schoen! Keine Bange !

It is all about Proper Order and Proper Procedures.
If one wishes to stay away from trouble one wants to make certain the paperwork is
"alles in ordnung"

Well, As my friend Bernd Das Brot says: "Mist! "

Gr
prof marvel
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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2016, 04:26:27 am »

Texas Jack,

Someone will want to throw a rock at me for saying this.  I will anyway.  Before I retired, I spent about 20 years as a CAS gunsmith.  SO:

Considering the cost (upwards of $200,000 USD) just to get a 2d Gun Colt imported to Germany, you should first consider this.

The Second Generation Colt Percussion guns are just very fancy Uberti's.  Uberti provided all the parts which went to a 3rd party contractor who assembled them.  Colt took NO PART in building the 2d Gen Colts.  The only thing to distinguish the 2d Gen Colts from Uberti are the roll marks stamped on the frame and barrel.

You would be much better served to start with Uberti, do the necessary things to make it right and then go play with it.  The Second Generation Colt Percussion is absolutely NO investment.

Coffinmaker

Coffinmaker,

I'm not throwing stones but I don't agree with you.
From my research I have learned that the 2nd Gen C&B Colts in the early years (1971 to 1973) are build at the Colt factory. Rough castings of some major parts are used from Uberti, everything else was made at Colt. Later production was made by Lou Imperato at his Iver Johnson plant in NJ under contract from Colt. Quality inspection and marketing still was done at Colt's and all of the 2nd Gen C&Bs will letter as Colt, which I can't believe that Colt would do it for a gun produced at Uberti.
Beside this, I own some Uberti C&Bs and now several 2nd Gen Colts. The difference is obvoious, much better finish, case hardening and blueing is much better and best of all, the 2nd Gen doesn't have these silly "Black Powder Only" stamp and the unnessecary model name on the barrel. All stampings on the 2nd Gen are close to the originals which is by far not the case with Ubertis or any other Italian C&B revolver.
Talking about investment, when I compare prices for 2nd Gen and Italian C&Bs in US and in Germany you realize at least two or three times the price of an Italian C&B for a 2nd Gen C&B. In most cases you realize even more in Germany.
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Texas Jack
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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2016, 04:39:04 am »

Not to be snide or anything but the Colt Gens were out 40 years ago.  The prices then bare no relevance to the prices now.  If you just want to know as a matter of interest look up an old catalog on the Internet.  They are available for a few dollars.  The flasks were made by Dixon in England.  I think Dixie Gun Works still sells them.

Pettifogger
you are right, the price now show the market value. The last MSR of the guns is mentioned in The Blue Book of Modern Black Powder Arms, but there is no hint on the prices of the accessory kits.
After reading your post I searched the Internet and found an old Colt catalogue with the C&B models for a few Dollars which I ordered. So your post was helpfull, thanks for that.  Wink
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Texas Jack
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2016, 11:03:35 pm »

When Colt produced the 2nd generation cap and ball revolvers they also produced black powder accessories kits in all necessary calibers to complete the wooden presentation cases for the guns. Does sombody here know what was the price for these kits and presentation cases?

Dennis Russell's Percussion Colt Revolvers - The Second Generation  collectors handbook and price guide lists the accessories and cases along with original MSRP and current (as of the 2011 publication date) values.
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Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2016, 09:45:24 am »

Dennis Russell's Percussion Colt Revolvers - The Second Generation  collectors handbook and price guide lists the accessories and cases & along with original MSRP and current (as of the 2011 publication date) values.
Finger McGee,
thanks for that information, do you have the ISBN number of that book? I can't find the book, not on Abe book, Amazon nor on eBay.  Huh
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Texas Jack
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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2016, 11:00:35 am »

You have to purchase it from Dennis.  His email is colt-blackpowder@earthlink.net
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Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2016, 11:12:23 am »

Fingers McGee,

thank you
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Texas Jack
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2016, 09:59:15 pm »

Coffinmaker,

I'm not throwing stones but I don't agree with you.
From my research I have learned that the 2nd Gen C&B Colts in the early years (1971 to 1973) are build at the Colt factory. Rough castings of some major parts are used from Uberti, everything else was made at Colt. Later production was made by Lou Imperato at his Iver Johnson plant in NJ under contract from Colt. Quality inspection and marketing still was done at Colt's and all of the 2nd Gen C&Bs will letter as Colt, which I can't believe that Colt would do it for a gun produced at Uberti.
Beside this, I own some Uberti C&Bs and now several 2nd Gen Colts. The difference is obvoious, much better finish, case hardening and blueing is much better and best of all, the 2nd Gen doesn't have these silly "Black Powder Only" stamp and the unnessecary model name on the barrel. All stampings on the 2nd Gen are close to the originals which is by far not the case with Ubertis or any other Italian C&B revolver.
Talking about investment, when I compare prices for 2nd Gen and Italian C&Bs in US and in Germany you realize at least two or three times the price of an Italian C&B for a 2nd Gen C&B. In most cases you realize even more in Germany.

I agree on the finish and outward quality of the Colt compared to Ubertis.

I have both also and the case coloring on the 2nd gen Colts is more like the case coloring on a Colt SAA. Appears to be real case color hardening not the fake stuff on the Uberti's.

The stampings and other bluing and finish is better than your run of the mill Uberti also.

I can't say the Colt actions is any better though, just like the Ubertis need work to make them right. Arbors are too short just like a Uberti, etc. The Colt 2nd gens I've had experience with were pretty poor action wise, I'm not sure they ever thought anyone would actually fire them.
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2016, 04:26:16 pm »

Hey Cliff,

That's been my experience as well.  Everybody wants to cheer about how wonderful the 2d Gen Colt Percussion guns were/are.  From an appearance standpoint, they look/looked really good.  Internally, not so much.  All the usual Uberti Problems have been present.  I like your observation that Colt/Imperato may not have thought anyone would be firing them.  Collector stuff only.  Shame really.

Colt purists however, just won't accept the warts.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2016, 05:17:37 pm »

+2 on the Colt actions.  Some of the worse C&B Colt clones I have tuned were Colt 2nd Gens.  To be honest I think Colt thought more of these would be left unfired as "collector" items than would be shot.  Some of the cased sets in particular look nice in their cases but the guts and internal fit and finish leave a lot to be desired.  For occassional shooting just buy a new Uberti.  For competition the Uberti will require a full tune-up.  If the primary purpose is competition I would start with a Pietta.
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« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2016, 07:48:55 am »

Ref. Coffinmaker's #42 reply and Pettifogger's #43, all I can say is as the British are fond in saying upon agreement is "Hear Hear"!    Also-

Colt purists however, just won't accept the warts.


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