Deerskin rifle bag.

[Curley Cole]

JohnR

Excellent tips. Actually some of the refrences u use are in some of the links I sent to 4Trod

I wish I could do some beading, but for the same reason I can't do leather, I must watch..arthritis is a pain.  I would like to see some of the pieces you may have in your collection...

good shootin
curley

[Forty Rod]

OKay, being from Cache Valley, Utah and having travelled the country and know people who were Shoshone, Ute, and Navajo (and some Papago, Hopi, Zuni, Blackfeet, etc.)  I want to stay with the Shoshone and Ute designs.

I have two pictures, unfortunately not in color, of solid color beaded panels with crosses on them.  Both are on Shoshone shirts.  One is very light (white?) with darker crosses (red, black, blue ?) and the other is darker...but not really black dark... background with lighter colored crosses.  Both have vertical borders about a bead wide in colors to match the crosses.

Could I have a dark red with white crosses and border and not be too far off?

I appreciate the reference materials, but I'd like to get this scabbard done before Christmas and my local library doesn't have most of the books given.

If this turns out well I'll likely do more and spend more time on research, but this one is a quicky and a practice piece to see if I can actually do the leather and bead work before I dive in over my head.

[Curley Cole]

Sounds good. A couple of the links I sent you gave you good tips on doing the design and the thread work. I would look at those for an idea of technique, other stuff research later.
The design sounds good, besides, it is yer idea, and who is gonna complain besides yerownself. (altho I am often my own worst critic.)
I have a couple of more good pix I may send you...

curley

[Forty Rod]

I need to take a quick trip to Uselessinfoville.

Where can I find a listing of seed bead (and other beads, too) sizes in INCHES.  I don't do millimeters.  I was born before they were invented, and never learned them.  Found a source with colors I haven't seen anywhere else (kandrasbeads.com) and what appear to be very good prices.

I have some 12/0 and 14/0 beads, but want something a little larger, like 1/8 inch or so.  10/0 or 11/0 have been suggested, but no one can tell me how big they really are.

I'm getting down to the point where I'm gonna try beading my very nice rifle sheath (It turned out way better than I had any right to expect, considering I had no dang idea what I was doing.) and hope I don't bollix it up.

[Dalton Masterson]

Hey Forty Rod, just think of metrics this way. A Roosevelt dime, is pretty much 1mm thick. So stack up a few dimes to get the thickness you need, and viola!!!

DM

[Dr. Bob]

Forty Rod,

The smaller the number, the bigger the seed bead.  You might actually be looking for what is called "pony" beads.  In the Indian trade era, they were called pound beads, because they were packaged in brown paper in about 1 pound quantities.  They come in solid colours and with patterns.

[Gun Butcher]

 Spot on Doc. I was just going to say pony beads if he is looking for 1/8".

Forty, The colors you suggested would work fine. The predominent colors were white,black, red ,medium sky blue, and very dark blue in the 1800 to 1840 period after that many other colors became available and designs stared to change. The type of panels you are wanting to do would be fine and the Shosone did use a lazy stitch. I would look for a very dark red. I think what you have in mind would look great.

[ChuckBurrows]

The bead sizing method of 10/0, 11/0, 8/0, etc is simple: 12/0 means there are (nominally - few are exact)) 12 beads per inch so as GB noted 8/0 is the closest thing to a 1/8" bead

If you look at my work bead work you'll get an idea of what 8/0 pound beads look like when beaded up. 8/0 pound beads  were the most popular sized beads used by the western tribes pre-1850, although seed beads as small as 14/0 were imported and used as early as the late 1700's. The most common stitch pre-1850 amongst the western tribes was the lane stitch (formerly known as the lazy stitch) - During the early era of Plains/Transmontane beadwork the patterns were primarily versions of the earlier quill work. It wasn't until the mid-late 1840's that distinctive tribal styles of beadwork began to become recognizable, the Crow and Cheyenne being two of the earliest distinctive styles with the Crows developing much of their style based on their painted parfleche designs.

PS Forty Rod I'd love to have that Colt Loading page - my snail mail address is on my website if thats how you want to send it.

And FWIW - I get most of my beads from Crazy Crow - really like the French Old Time Colors, but they are getting in short supplys so amd starting to use the German Old Time Colors.

[JohnR]

If you are going for an early look - anything pre-1900 - DO NOT USE BLACK.  It was a very difficult color to come up with a chemical composition to create black in a glass bead.  Old beads that APPEAR to be black in photographs, are actually a very dark blue, often called "cobalt".  Modern black seed beads, especially in the larger sizes, are stark black.  IMO, they actually detract from a piece.  When looking at an actual piece of beadwork rather than a photograph, the difference is obvious.

Size 8/0, or pound beads, as recommended by others are easy to work with, although my personal preference is smaller.  In that size, the irregularities between colors of the same "size" you will find in smaller beads are not as pronounced.  French or German old time colors are the cat's meow, since the old Italian beads are almost impossible to find in the right colors and prohibitively expensive when found.

[ChuckBurrows]

If you are going for an early look - anything pre-1900 - DO NOT USE BLACK

Well sir with all due respect, but black beads are listed BY COLOR on trade lists as early as the 1820's and show up on later bead cards, listed as black - this is NOT an interpretation of color by sight, but actual documentation as being sold as black. Plus I've personally seen several pieces that are undoubtedly black and not aged cobalt which as you noted once you recognize it is easy to discern the difference.
Like you I have been studying pre-1900 (mostly pre-1860) beadwork for close to 50 years and have had the very good luck to examine first hand a lot of original work, both in museums and in private collections.