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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks (Moderators: Delmonico, Pitspitr)  |  Topic: shooting in Navy white choker 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Colonel Buckshot
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« on: September 04, 2009, 10:36:21 pm »


The US Navy white "choker" uniform has been around since the 1905 regulations.  But what type of rig would have been used at that time:  belts and holsters? I also have the bell crown type cap to go with my cotton choker as the ones now are pretty much the same except for the polyester, velcro neck and no sword cut. 


* plate 07 1901 regulations.jpg (21.78 KB, 314x500 - viewed 367 times.)
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Adrian Geary
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Drydock
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2009, 03:40:12 am »

It predates 1905, as your own illustration shows.  I forget how far back it goes, but at least into the early 1890s.  Black belt, pistol frog and cartridge box. 
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2009, 09:59:59 am »

My dad and all his brothers served in the navy, I'd "transfer" from the army, and be GAF navy, if I could afford a Lee-Navy!
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Drydock
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2009, 05:08:35 pm »

I've shot a few matchs In my "Crackerjacks" with a proper Donald Duck hat.  Brace of 51 Navys and a Spencer.
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S. Quentin Quale, Esq.
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2009, 10:51:03 am »

While I'm reluctant to cite "argumentum ad Hollywoodium" there is a sequence (or two) in the movie The Sand Pebbles where the officers of the gunboat wear choker whites in combat.  Even the sword was not just for ceremony.  Apart from a couple of TV movies about the Spanish-American War there are few if any illustrations of Navy officers in dress uniforms carrying weapons as part of a shore party.

IIRC the officer wore leggins as well as a small haversack.

I'd have to back and watch Sand Pebbles again to see just what was used.
 
SQQ
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Colonel Buckshot
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2009, 06:19:31 pm »

I put together my uniform as a tribute to the USS Panay and the movie Sand Pebbles but I found out the white chokers have been around much longer than I thought.  The other thing is the navy had white cotton uniform protectors for the whites to keep the holster from rubbing off on the chokers.  I see several leather makers make a white leather belt and frogs that would probably be much better than the black
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Adrian Geary
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 09:00:43 am »

Most of my historical interst lies in the Navy's history from the Spanish-American War to Pearl Harbor and the Cavalry from the Spanish-American War to the end of the horse cavalry in 1948.  Finding Army uniforms for that period is not much of a problem, but Navy uniforms are as scarce as hen's teeth.   Wink

It's not so much the blouses, shirts and tousers (those can be gotten without too much difficulty) but covers are a real problem.  The narrow topped cover depicted in your photo seems to have persisted into the late '20s or early '30s.  I'm not sure when the modern "saucer hat" came into being.

As a retired Naval Aviator who rides horses I've also been interested in aviation related clothing.  The National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, FL has a huge collection of photos of Aviators from the first class at San Diego in 1912 on.  You see a lot of riding boots and breeches on early Aviators.  At that time Army and Navy pilots trained at the same time I'm not surprised the the Navy guys copied the uniforms of the Army guys, many of whom were Cavalry branch officers.

My wife and I are both retired Navy and we both participate in the National Cavlary Competitions (this year to he held at Ft. Robinson, NE).  Since the Navy only had one riding uniform in its history (a Riding Habit for Nurses, 1917-1919) we presently wear modern uniforms slightly modified.  I would like to put together a cotton choker white uniform for parade and cermonial purposes.

Have you been able to aquire an appropriate cover?  If so, where did you get it?  Were you able to get the appropriate emblems, and if so, where?  So far the only thing that's stopped me is the cover. Any help in getting one would be very greatly appreciated.   Smiley

I do some of my own leatherwork (simple stuff like holster, belts, cases, etc.).  I've got a reproduction pistol frog for an Model 1851 Colt, but for a historical persona was thinking of being a bit "inauthentic" carrying a Schofield Well Fargo model in nickle finish with ivory grips.  Just a little "splash and dash" don't you know!!!!!   Cool

Any direction you might be able to give me would be appreciated!

SQQ
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Drydock
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 09:27:44 am »

www.ssfirearms.com  has both the m1895 Barracks cap, and the 1902/1905 bell crown hats, all of which can be adapted to a navy impression  www.hatcrafters.com  has a lot of stuff that can be used,  and craba$$ Dirty Billy will make anything you want for a price and a long wait.  (but its excellent)  I'd call Hatcrafters and have them make what you want.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 11:48:30 am »

The US Navy white "choker" uniform has been around since the 1905 regulations.  But what type of rig would have been used at that time:  belts and holsters? I also have the bell crown type cap to go with my cotton choker as the ones now are pretty much the same except for the polyester, velcro neck and no sword cut. 

I've seen some photographs of naval officer in the high-collar uniform worn during the Spanish American War.  Essentially you're looking at the black leather navy swordbelt with a black holster for whatever pistol you're carrying.  Up until about 1890 this was the Colt Navy Richards-Mason conversion worn in the open "frog" style holster.  After that it was the Navy issue Colt M1889 DA revolver carried in the regulation flap holster (which I think you can get through What Price Glory).


I'm heading out overseas in an hour or so, but will look and see what I can find on my return next week.

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Colonel Buckshot
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 12:41:05 pm »

I found the bell crown style hat at a firemans supply place.  Ill get it later when I get home they have the black Mohair braid with the white cover.  The embroidered eagle I found from a place in England that makes that kind of stuff. 
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Adrian Geary
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 01:28:37 pm »

the caps are Bayly Inc. 
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Adrian Geary
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 06:48:08 pm »

CB - the belt is basically the officers word belt with frogs for both a cutlass and the pistol(s) (pistols for shooting SASS).

One of my decisions for doing a USRCS impression (other than being active duty USCG) is that back then Commanding Officers of USRCS Cutters (ships) were given small arms budgets and what was allowed.

There were ships with spencers, trapdoors, lee-navy and even a few with 1886, Sharps and Maynards.

The pistol list varied widely until after Span Am war - to include converted C&Bs and SW No3's.

While the guns varied widely the sword belt with pouches and frog style holster and frog for Cutlass is very standard.

There are some awesome pics at Navy Bethesda hospital that show some landing parties dressed out for battle from that period.  I will take a digital cam next time i go and take pics.

PR
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2009, 04:14:06 am »

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-e/entrp5-p.htm
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2009, 09:42:33 am »

Found some information in the revenue cutter regulations.  Cartridge box front right of belt buckle.  Revolver rear of right hip.  Canteen right side, rear of revolver.  Haversack rear of left hip.  Also black shoes worn with leggings for all ranks and clothing.  The navy regs allow officers to wear white shoes with the white undress. 
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Adrian Geary
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2009, 04:27:37 pm »

In researching this topic I found a memo dated 1915 from SECNAV Josephus Daniels that permits the issuance of khaki dye and authorizes Commaning Officers to permit the dying of service dress white uniforms for landing parties.  Near as I can tell this applies only to enlisted uniforms, but it's not completely clear from the wording.  Naturally I tried to save this reference; and naturally it didn't save.  And naturally now I can't find it.   Sad

Khaki uniforms were first worn by officers in the aviation community perhaps as early as 1912-13.  They were formally authorized for Aviators in 1917; abolished in 1923, but reinstated two years later; authorzied for submariners in 1931; and for all personnel in 1941.

Looking at the photo in the OP it appears that the modern service dress white uniform is identical.  From the photo it appears that a shirt was worn under the blouse, possibly with a stand-up collar?  Makes aquiring the pieces relatively easy (if you can get past the modern fabics  Wink ).  The fire uniform hat looks like a good beginning.

Thanks for the help, here!!!

SQQ

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Colonel Buckshot
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 09:14:41 pm »

waiting on my holsters and belt just using what I already had. 

<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/colonelbuckshot/?action=view&current=IMG_1300.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t145/colonelbuckshot/IMG_1300.jpg" border="0" alt="US Navy Cowboy"></a>
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Adrian Geary
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Colonel Buckshot
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 01:23:13 pm »

Shot sunday and won 1st place in Cowboy cat.
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Adrian Geary
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 06:35:02 pm »

Spiffy outfit, Sir!!!!!   Smiley

We're leaving for Ft. Robinson on Sat. so I'll have to make this a next year project.  But I suspect it will be one!!!   Cool

SQQ
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S. Quentin Quale, Esq.
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2009, 02:03:07 pm »

Last night I was looking through a book of Naval History I've got and found a photo of U.S. sailors in Vera Cruz in 1914.  They are in formation returning to their ships after serving as a shore party.  They are carrying rifles and field gear.  Interestingly, the officers are wearing choker whites with black waist belts for side arms (I can't see any swords) and black boots (or maybe black shoes and black puttees).  Since the design of the Service Dress White uniform has not changed in about 115 years I'm considering it for next year's competition National Cavalry Competition (at least in the opening ceremony).

I've also discovered a bunch of photos of Naval Aviators from about 1912 through 1939 and many are wearing breeches and boots along with either the Aviation Green or Khaki uniform.  Since Service Dress Khaki is making a comeback, I might try and put together that as a uniform for the "dirty shirt" events.

Last, but not least, I found a modification to the Naval Uniform Regulations signed by Josephus Daniels (SECNAV under Wilson) dated 1915 authorizing the issuance of khaki dye and permitting captains to authorize the dying of up to two dress white uniforms for wear by shore parties.  It's a bit unclear if this applied only to enlisted uniforms or included officer uniforms as well.  Logic would dictate that if one was dyed so should the other.  But logic and Navy Regulations are not always bedfellows.  Smiley

I'm going to try and scan and post some of these photos later this week.

SQQ
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