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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks  |  GAF Regulations (Moderator: Pitspitr)  |  Topic: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901  (Read 29352 times)
Texas Lawdog
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2010, 01:07:51 pm »

I've got a 1901 Colt Army revolver that I plan on bringing to the Muster this year. I bought some BP 38 Colt ammo for it. It saw service in the Philippines by the Army and the Scouts until after WW2.
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2010, 07:01:22 pm »


When the sappers went to Yale in 1858 to confront Ned McGowan they were shot at from Hills Bar, across the Fraser River but were ordered not to respond.  I thought all they had was the issue rifled musket.  There were Royal Marines following on as back up but they held up at Hope.  The crisis was settled amicably, without gunfire when Ned paid a fine for assaulting a peace officer.  Before Judge Begbie left Yale, Ned invited him to Hills Bar for a banquet.  That was the end of "Ned McGowan's War."

Yup, I'm very familiar with Ned McGowan's War.  He was quite a character, being involved in many shootings and lynchings in San Francisco before taking a midnight ship just ahead of the Vigilance Committee's representatives.  No many folks made their names infamous in two countries, but he managed to!  Colonel Moody's restraint and politic demeanor probably prevented a serious outbreak, and perhaps even a war between the US and Great Britain over the whole of British Columbia.  Fascinating stuff there.

Anyway, for those other folks reading this, there is a ton of great information on the Columbia Detachment of the Royal Engineers, including Ned McGowan's War, here: http://www.royalengineers.ca/

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2010, 07:06:42 pm »

Interestingly, Adams revolvers were adopted in for issue to Canada's North West Mounted Police in 1874.

A good friend of mine used to use his 1872 Adams for CAS events back in the late '80's, along with his Civilian Spencer.  He could trace his Adams to Ft. Garry in 1874, making him, with his DA revolver, the most authentic "Westerner" at the shoots.  Luckily the guys running the event weren't retentive about SASS rules and didn't mind him shooting it at all.  It's not like he was going to win or anything, and it WAS very cool!

Then there's the friend of mine who would portray Jerry Potts...

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2010, 08:04:41 pm »

Hangtown;  Here is the book on McGowans War;

http://www.amazon.ca/McGowans-War-Donald-Hauka/dp/1554200016/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262480363&sr=1-1-fkmr1

I live in British California, at Fort Victoria.  I truly believe that Ned's failure to foment an anti-British backlash during the goldrush on Fraser's River was the foundation of British Columbia.
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2010, 09:43:58 pm »

Gordon:

1872 Adams, you say?

I have the good fortune to have one among my toys ....  Grin

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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2010, 11:55:50 pm »

Hangtown;  Here is the book on McGowans War;

http://www.amazon.ca/McGowans-War-Donald-Hauka/dp/1554200016/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262480363&sr=1-1-fkmr1

I live in British California, at Fort Victoria.  I truly believe that Ned's failure to foment an anti-British backlash during the goldrush on Fraser's River was the foundation of British Columbia.

I like that: "British California".  Smiley

But you're right, Colonel Moody's actions probably clinched the deal for Britain, and Canada, to hold the continent from Atlantic to the Pacific north (mostly  Wink) of the 49th.

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2010, 12:01:54 am »

Gordon:

1872 Adams, you say?

I have the good fortune to have one among my toys ....  Grin



Yup, that's the critter, to be sure.  Very nice, well made guns. I'm not sure if he still has it, though.  I certainly hope so, as I always admired the fact that he used it for a Canadian impression. He was born in Vancouver, after all.  Smiley

Right now I'm looking to trade into a nice late-model (fluted cylinder) Webley RIC in .450.  Always liked the little round, even if it's not quite sufficient for dropping Zulu's or Pathan's in their tracks. Still a great little gun!

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2010, 05:13:27 am »

..... Right now I'm looking to trade into a nice late-model (fluted cylinder) Webley RIC in .450.  Always liked the little round, even if it's not quite sufficient for dropping Zulu's or Pathan's in their tracks. Still a great little gun!

Being a British revolver addict, I have an RIC New Model revolver also... an Army & Navy C.S.L. marked one ..... albeit chambered in .455.  It is quite accurate, and a pleasure to shoot ......


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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 09:08:50 pm »

Hi Drydock,

Would you consider adding the Remington Army and Navy conversions to the list of Primary Milspec Handguns.

"While there is no documentation it is believed by collectors and Historians that the government was secretly ingaged in the use, fabrication, and/or purchase of both Colt and Remington conversions well before the expiration of the Rollin White patent.
Remington conversions were in the hands of the troops well before June 1868."

"This fact is documented by the "Statement of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores" submitted to the 2nd Session of Congress by Congressman Butler of Massachusetts, based on a report of ordnance and ordnance stores on hand compiled by the Chief of Ordnance stating that a total of 16,958,799 Army-size pistol cartridges of .46 caliber on hand, consisting of 1,955,783 in the hands of the troops and another 15,003,016 stored at Arsenals and Armories."

The Remington conversion was chambered for the .46 rimfire.

 "The Navy was offered the new Colt SAA revolvers, Remington converted Army revolvers and Remington converted Navy revolvers, but due to lack of funds, elected to convert its exsting percussion revolvers. It had roughly 1000 Remington New Model Navy percussion revolvers on hand, which had been in service since the Civil War."

In August of 1875 various Navy bases were ordered to send their Remington percussion revolvers to the factory for conversion.

While records of Odnance Department Colt conversions are better documented, 1,138 Richards conversions and 2,097 Navy Richards Mason conversions, it apears that Remington revolvers were converted in comparable numbers. The conversion revolvers of the post Civil War era were a stop gap measure and I would be reluctant to say that any one of them was a Primary Handgun on it's own.

Reference: A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers by R. Bruce Mc Dowell

Yours
Jay Strite

P.S. I you haven't read it allready please please read my post - Ordnance Officer Impression

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Drydock
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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 10:10:34 pm »

The Remington was not technicaly a "primary" milspec handgun. Like the M1917s to the M1911 in the first world war, it is considered a secondary, or substitute standard.  It is, however, a significant military handgun, and is of demonstrated military use, both in its percussion and conversion forms, and as such is welcome in our compitions when paired with an appropriate longarm.  The list at the beginning of this thread was simply to list the Primary, or Military standard sidearms of the respective countrys.  To even attempt to list secondary and demonstrated military usage sidearms would take more bandwidth than the internet has available!  But all such weapons documented are welcome, if not necessarly listed.
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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 11:30:44 pm »

Being a British revolver addict, I have an RIC New Model revolver also... an Army & Navy C.S.L. marked one ..... albeit chambered in .455.  It is quite accurate, and a pleasure to shoot ......




Thanks for posting that photo Grant. That looks to be the same creature as the one I'm considering, including the holster (though brown rather than black).  I had simply assumed that it was in .450, I'll have to check to see if it really is or is instead in .455".  Works for me, I have two boxes of old Dominion .455's around somewhere...  Smiley

Spoke to my compadre who had owned the Adams, and sadly he had traded it away a few years ago.  At least it went to another fellow with strong Canadian roots though, so I think it's pretty safe...

Now for the '76 Carbine... Wink

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2010, 07:05:53 am »

That's an outstanding looking handgun!
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2010, 02:14:41 am »

Gordon:

SHB's post brought me back to this thread, and I noticed something you said in your post that I meant to respond to befpre, but didn't get around to .....

The holster in my photo is actually brown also - just a very dark brown from many years accumulation of leather dressing.  The holster came with my very first Webley, a Mark V service revolver, with Q-broadarrow-G and Q-broadarrow-P property marks - signifying "Queensland Government" and "Queensland Police" (Australia). Even though the Mark V service revolver wasn't adopted until 1913, except for the model marking it is virtually indistinguishable from the earlier Mark IV (1899) and Mark III (1897), so its use is currently allowed under NCOWS rules (and would continue to be allowed under the new, expanded and clarified rules I have proposed for consideration at the upcoming NCOWS Convention) -



The only significant difference between the Mark III and Mark IV was an improved grade of steel to better accommodate the first smokeless loads (cordite) and then on the Mark V the cylinder walls were increased slightly in thickness for the nitro smokeless loads which were subsequently introduced ..... To illustrate that there is no apparent difference, here  is a Mark III Webley service revolver -

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Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2010, 06:07:09 pm »

I don't know if it was ever officially adopted, but I believe the Merwin Hulbert was popular in Russia between the S&W #3 and the Nagant.

It was the .44, maybe private purchase.
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2010, 08:23:36 pm »

A handgun of demonstrated military usage, and welcome when paired with an appropriate longarm.
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 07:48:14 pm »

Grant, just to let you know I picked up that Webley the other day.  It looks virtually identical to the one you posted, but with the shorter .450" cylinder rather than the longer .455" cylinder.  Sweet little pistol, I have to say, and came complete with a holster and 100 rounds of Fiocchi ammo for it, too!  I'll post a photo as soon as I can manage to get one of it.

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 11:29:26 pm »

Sounds great, Gordon.  I look forward to seeing the photos!
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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/
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« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2010, 08:20:58 pm »

I'm jealous of both of you!

 Wink
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"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

SEE MY PHOTOS: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/m1a1mstrgn/
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, Honourable Master of the Black Arts, GAF#98, SBSS, WARTHOG, STORM, American Legion Post # 495
*and a few other organizations*
F.&A.M. - Wayne Guthrie Lodge #753 *** Hiram's Rangers #105
(former) US Army M1 & M1A1 Tank Master Gunner
AKA - Jeff Bailey  A Three-Percenter & Sheepdog

Take me out to the black, tell 'em I aint comin' back. Burn the land; boil the sea: you can't take the sky from me. Have no place I must be; since I found Serenity:  you can't take the sky from me.
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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2010, 09:43:21 pm »

Grant, here is the little RIC, complete with it's original holster (at least it was original to it when my friend bought it!).  I haven't done any real research on this specific piece yet, but the fellow I got it from said that his research indicated that it was manufactured in 1885 or so, which sounds good to me!



Looks a little stubbier than yours due to the shorter cylinder, but what the heck, still a "secondary service revolver", even in .450".  Ought to shoot nicely, too!

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2010, 11:15:23 pm »

Mmmmm ..... very nice looking revolver!    Shocked
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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/
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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2010, 07:49:20 pm »

Very VERY nice looking revolver........excuse me while I wipe the drool off my keyboard.....
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2010, 08:30:39 pm »

Thank you, Gentlemen!  Now all I need is either a Snider Carbine, a Martini-Henry Carbine or, better yet, a Winchester '76 Carbine to round out the set! Might take a while for the Winchester though...  Shocked
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« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2010, 08:56:28 pm »

I don't believe that the NWMP received any Martin-Henry carbines.  10 were ordered in 1874 for test purposes but a delay in approving the weapon, or specifically the ammunition, put off their availability until 1877.  What was issued to the force in 1874 were 10 M-H rifles.  They were not adopted for service, and only one per troop were issued.  As far as I can see they were only of any use in shooting matches with the Militia.

What is interesting is that in 1874, due to the poor condition of the stock of Adams revolvers, 30 S&W "Old Model Russian" revolvers were purchased in Fort Benton and issued to recruits.  One officer, Sub-Inspector Allen, owned a private purchase S&W OM Russian as well.  This is the only NWMP revolver that is available as a newly made reproduction.
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THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
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« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2010, 09:57:47 pm »

Sir Charles:  I didn't put down the Martini-Henry Carbine as something to use for a NWMP impression, I just want one for a general British Cavalry impression...  Wink  However, were I to do a NWMP impression I would acquire either the Snider or '76 Winchester  Carbine. 

Cheers!

Gordon
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2010, 10:43:51 pm »

It is not well known that the "NWMP Model" 1876 Winchester perhaps would be more correctly referred to as the "NWMP & Militia" model.  A fair number (600, if memory serves) were also acquired by Canada's Department of Militia & Defence for issue to mounted troops during the 1885 North West Rebellion.  Although their primary use was by provisional militia units raised in the Territories, they were also issued to regular cavalry units on active service.

This photo shows members of the Governor General's Body Guard  (cavalry regiment from Toronto) in camp -

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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier
Old West ClipArt & History Website:  http://rattlesnakejacks.com/
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