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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: Primers backing out of .44-40 shells 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Primers backing out of .44-40 shells  (Read 44882 times)
Blackpowder Burn
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2009, 11:01:42 pm »

Wish I'd been there to buy that 44-40 from the Ranger.  I'd have gotten a good gun for probably a very attractive price! I love the caliber - I have 2 revolvers and 3 rifles chambered for it.
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2009, 09:25:12 am »

Quote
I had loaded the 777 like I loaded the Goex.
Grapeshot ... guess you missed the emphasis in the H777 data that says ... reduce H777 powder charge 10% from an original gunpowder charge!  Grin

And there is one aspect related to the initial post that should be mentioned ... burrs on the the flash holes of the cases .  They will cause multiple issues for erratic ignition and consequences, regardless of the primer type your rifle likes ... as Del mentioned.  Spend the 12 bucks and buy the Lyman flash hole uniformer tool.  Plus, enlarging the primer hole shooting BP ... school is not out on this subject.  But if one is shooting nitro powder ... it's a No No!
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2009, 09:36:04 am »

Thanks John Boy, always worry when folks say "this is what guns like."  My self, I  always found it better to feed them what they like, (with in reason of course.) Wink
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2009, 10:21:14 am »

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My self, I  always found it better to feed them what they like, (with in reason of course.)
Yes Sir, Del.  Folks don't always realize this to be the case.  Every rifle is different, just like a lady  Wink  And the same loading data for a given bullet will not always shoot the same in every rifle.  Plus, Range Time is the key to success at multiple distances if one plans to shoot past 100yds!  Then when the given recipe is found that one's rifle likes ... don't change and go experimenting again!  Just shoot it more to perfect ones shooting technique Grin

Wish I have had learned this when I got into the BPCR sport.  But I'm down now to about 6 bullet recipes that my rifles like for the various calibers. May have to have a mold sale or buy more rifles!
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2009, 03:34:30 pm »

Your problem may be similar to one I had. When I first switched to 44-40 I bought new Starline Brass. I was loading 2.2cc of 2f Goex. A number of the primers backed out in pistols and rifle. I called Starline and sent them a few pieces of new and once fired brass for evaluation. They advised me that all brass checked was within factory specs. I switched to Winchester brass and experienced no problems. I kept playing with the Starline Brass and after two loadings the primer pockets had apparently formed to the primers and the problem went away. Can't explain the wherefores and whys but this was my experience. Try a different brand of brass. Can't hurt anything. Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2009, 09:42:44 pm »

Royal, I don't shoot 44-40's but loading black in Starline ... 38-55 (2.080 and 2.125), 45 Colt, 45-70, 45-90 and 50-70 brass I've not noticed any excess backout.  I've loaded each caliber with both LP and LR primers (CCI and Federal). Except for the 45 Colt's, I do ream the primer pocket on all new cases.  And have noticed with Starline's, 1st primer seating with CCI's is on the hard side but after they are shot at least once - easy primer seating

I looked back through the whole thread and unless I missed it, excess head space was not mentioned.  The 2 primary causes for excessive back out is high pressure and excess head space.  Both conditions will show the primer partially out of the pocket and the face of the primer will be flat. Head space greater that 0.002 - 0.004 is excess head space
Would be helpful if JD would take a couple of pictures and post them.  We could get a better idea of the cause.
JD - also measure your cylinder gap back to the frame

Now, here's another possible case ... full length resizing of the case.  The dies are cut to SAAMI specs and many of the firearms today are not exactly SAAMI specs.  So I shoot a case that has been full length re-sized and the chamber is slightly smaller than SAAMI - the case moves back with a primer face flattened and partially out of the case

JD, might want to just neck size your next batch of brass and see what the primers look like after you shoot them
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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2009, 10:16:14 pm »

Royal--that's darned interesting. I wonder if it's the starlines?  I can't remember if I used 1 x shot brass or new, but they were fairly fresh.  I'll have to dig up some different brass and try it. I think I have some different cases from store-bought ammo kicking around. And the next black powder rounds I load will be in used brass.

John Boy--great suggestions as always!  Smiley  I'll try to get some pictures taken of the cases tomorrow, and I'll try the neck sizing.

Can't remember if I mentioned it in my first post, but these were shot in USFA Rodeos, and the tolerances are pretty tight.

Thanks everyone!   Cheesy
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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2009, 10:18:42 pm »

Just a though, measure the rim thickness on the Starline brass and a couple other brands if you can.  44-40 headspaces on the rim, a thin rim could cause this.  Seen it in some 30-30 cases years ago. 
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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2009, 10:21:25 pm »

Thanks, Del. I'll mic ithe rims.

Man, I'm getting a long list to try out!  Makes ya wonder how they did it in the 19th century without mics and calipers and the number one tool for these problems: the internet!  Grin

Edit RE: the post above--how do ya neck size a .44-40? Seems like you need a special die, since it's a psuedo-bottleneck.
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2009, 11:19:24 pm »

Thanks, Del. I'll mic ithe rims.

Man, I'm getting a long list to try out!  Makes ya wonder how they did it in the 19th century without mics and calipers and the number one tool for these problems: the internet!  Grin

Edit RE: the post above--how do ya neck size a .44-40? Seems like you need a special die, since it's a psuedo-bottleneck.

You don't want to do a true neck size, set the die to fully size the neck and partly size the body, and just bump the shoulder, but not push it back.  Common way to do a lot of high power bottle neck rifle rounds.  If you don't bump the shoulder it can creep forward a bit and cause chambering problems.

If you need more info on how, just let me know.
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2009, 07:16:39 am »

To carry my post further I have bought some once fired .44-40 Starline Brass from a fellow shooter since that first purchase and experienced no problems at all.  That first batch of Starline may have been my problem. Now that I think back I had ordered 1000 pieces and all the problems came from the first bag of 500. I have to repeat though that I loaded and shot Winchester, Remington and some Hornady brass around the same time and had no difficulties whatsoever. Huh
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2009, 07:17:15 am »

You don't want to do a true neck size, set the die to fully size the neck and partly size the body, and just bump the shoulder, but not push it back.  Common way to do a lot of high power bottle neck rifle rounds.  If you don't bump the shoulder it can creep forward a bit and cause chambering problems.

If you need more info on how, just let me know.

Gracias, mi amigo!
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2009, 08:11:56 am »

Starline is my 44-40 brass of choice.  Never a brass related problem.
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2009, 09:19:03 am »

Any companay can have a problem now and then.  Back in the 80's I quit buying Remingtton brass for a while because of a problem.
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2009, 01:30:01 pm »

Okay, here are a few shots of the shells.  The first is just an average sample to show how they look when they come out of my Dillon progressive.  The second and third shots show how the primers have flattened and backed out.  Afraid this is the best I can do without going into a big production (I don't have a tripod here--they're at the studio):





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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2009, 01:36:33 pm »

Another

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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2009, 11:57:38 pm »

Try a hotter load and see what happens.
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john boy
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2009, 08:28:50 am »

I'd rule out excessive pressure and IMHO ... it's the gap between the cylinder face and the frame.  Shoot some in a rifle and compare the cases
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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2009, 10:39:52 am »

Okay, here are a few shots of the shells.  The first is just an average sample to show how they look when they come out of my Dillon progressive.  The second and third shots show how the primers have flattened and backed out.  Afraid this is the best I can do without going into a big production (I don't have a tripod here--they're at the studio):

<a href="http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob0.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob0.jpg</a>

<a href="http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob1.jpg</a>

<a href="http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob3.jpg</a>


J.D.,
That's not even close to being "flattened."  Those primers haven’t seen much pressure at all. In fact I’ve seen primers popped without powder that almost look like that.

This thread has been up here so long I decided to back track it a little.  You said you had been using 1.9cc of Schutzen FFFg so I decided to see how many grains it actually is.  Lee says it’s only 30.3 grains,  I just measured some FFFg Schutzen, some Goex and some Skirmish.  They all measure from under 30 (Schutzen FFFg) to less than 31 grains (Skirmish) by volume.   The reason you see a difference is that the more uniform powders like Schutzen settle a bit more every time you pour them into a different measure,  the same is true when you dump into your case.
 
Your problem is that you don’t have enough powder as a lot of people have told you.  I dumped 1.9ccs of Schutzen  into a case and then compared it to a Mav Dutchman, it would barely touch the powder as dumped.  You told us you weren’t using Mav Dutchmans, if you still aren’t then you have even more space, the Mav Dutchman has more bullet back in the case than any other 200 grain I have ever seen because of the large grease groove which makes the bullet longer.  If you rattle it around a bit you get NO compression.  You need to put that 1.9cc scoop away and get out your 2.2cc scoop and put at least 35 grains in there.

You have said you were going to add more powder, have you, and how much are you throwing now?

Regards,
Mako
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2009, 11:00:11 am »

Royal--that's darned interesting. I wonder if it's the starlines?  I can't remember if I used 1 x shot brass or new, but they were fairly fresh.  I'll have to dig up some different brass and try it. I think I have some different cases from store-bought ammo kicking around. And the next black powder rounds I load will be in used brass.

John Boy--great suggestions as always!  Smiley  I'll try to get some pictures taken of the cases tomorrow, and I'll try the neck sizing.

Can't remember if I mentioned it in my first post, but these were shot in USFA Rodeos, and the tolerances are pretty tight.

Thanks everyone!   Cheesy
J.D.,
Where did you get Rodeos in .44-40?  I have talked with Doug at the SHOT show several times trying to get him to make the Rodeo available in .44-40 and every time he tells me there isn’t enough of a market.  I even asked if they would just pull 2 pairs (4 ¾ and 5 ½) of SAAs  going through the line and send them through the Rodeo finishing line instead of the Case hardening and “Dome Blue” finish.  He laughed and said the “custom” work would make them as expensive as a regular pair of SAAs.

I of course challenged him on that since I have set up a line just like his, he agreed it wouldn’t be as much but the special routing would make it a problem and they had too much on their plate.

I’ll buy those rodeos from you, I don't even care what length they are.  Name your price.

Regards,
Mako
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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2009, 11:13:25 am »

J.D.,
Where did you get Rodeos in .44-40?  I have talked with Doug at the SHOT show several times trying to get him to make the Rodeo available in .44-40 and every time he tells me there isn’t enough of a market.  I even asked if they would just pull 2 pairs (4 ¾ and 5 ½) of SAAs  going through the line and send them through the Rodeo finishing line instead of the Case hardening and “Dome Blue” finish.  He laughed and said the “custom” work would make them as expensive as a regular pair of SAAs.

Mako,
I probably shouldn't tell you this after you've gone through a lot of time and trouble trying to get rodeos custom-made....  I asked Gary Granger in Aug., 2007, about getting rodeos in .44-40 and he said, "no problem."  They didn't cost near as much as the premiums (I'd have to look at the rcp't for exact, but it was substantially less).  In a couple of months I had them in hand. 
Not sure I'd be willin' to part with 'em....  Sorry.  Sad
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2009, 11:19:32 am »

Mako, John Boy and the rest,  many thanks for the great suggestions!  Cheesy

Mako, I used the smaller dipper but I didn't level off the top, in fact I left a heap on top. When I measured the volume against the bullet it looked right, with a little comp. I'm definitely going to the 2.2cc dipper.  And I wish I had some feedback about the new loads, but the SOB that I ordered LP primers from, at a price I'd rather not divulge lest you think me an idiot,  Roll Eyes and who told me he sent them out about 5 days ago, actually sent them yesterday so they won't be here for a few days.... 
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« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2009, 12:21:08 pm »

Mako,
I probably shouldn't tell you this after you've gone through a lot of time and trouble trying to get rodeos custom-made....  I asked Gary Granger in Aug., 2007, about getting rodeos in .44-40 and he said, "no problem."  They didn't cost near as much as the premiums (I'd have to look at the rcp't for exact, but it was substantially less).  In a couple of months I had them in hand. 
Not sure I'd be willin' to part with 'em....  Sorry.  Sad
J.D.,
JUST GREAT...I think Gary is no longer with USFA (that's been the rumor).  I should have known talking with Doug was a mistake.

What barrel length are they? And if you do find that receipt, send me a PM if you don't mind.  I may try talking with someone else there if he is in fact gone.  Don't worry I won't "rat you out."  I'll just say I saw a pair and wanted to get my own.
 
My daughters both shoot Rodeos in .38 spl., I’d probably have to change my claim from shooting exclusively C&B at CAS matches if I had a pair in .44 WCF.  One last thing, how did they mark the barrel?  .44-40 or .44 WCF?

Thanks,

Mako
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« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2009, 02:02:00 pm »

PM sent.

Also, they're 4 3/4" barrels, barrel marked: "Frontier Six Shooter 44-40"  And the frame is stamped with patent marks. I sorta wish I'd got the 5 1/2" barrels, but I still like these pistols a lot.

I've installed lighter main springs and I'm probably gonna partially buff the finish off sometime.
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« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2009, 11:23:28 pm »

Somehow I doubt it's too low a pressure. My old ASM 44-40 has ran 10 gr of 3F with cornmeal filler & 200 grain pill for my son to try. He's not too interested in handguns yet, but the loads worked fine.


Regards,
Slim
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